Wild Bill: Origins of Ukrainian Ethnicity

[Wild Bill]

As for me personaly, normanist theory looks logical. Especialy because Novgorodian ships looks like scandinavian, their armour looks like scandinavian.
But... varyag not means viking, this is fact.
For vikings there were certain words норман or нурман. Norman or nurman.

[Fat Cat]

Okay, its an interesting debate but despite some controversy, we agree that there was a people that called themselves Rus, and they lived in both modern Ukraine and Russian Federation lands, and that they only diverged over time to the sad point we find ourselves at today. So...you mentioned the Mongol invasion, which I have recently been reading about, but also the Great Lithuanian Princedom. What effect did these two things have on the situation?

[Fat Cat]

Fatcat,

A lot of Russians and Russian historians dispute the idea of a Germanic founding or Germanic ruling elite via the Vikings. The whole idea hurts their slavic pride. Who knows what crazy alternative history Bill has been taught.

I understand that this may be the case, but it's not the focus of this thread and I really am not informed about the subject. In my mind, even if the Norman theory is true, it doesn't mean that they were more advanced than the native Slavs. I can think of many examples of a vital but savage people conquering a more advanced civilization, like the Mongols over the Chinese or the Goths over the Romans.

Anyway, it's not important to a better understanding of the Ukraine and Russia today. I asked Bill for his point of view and he is being kind enough to give it.

[Wild Bill]

... but also the Great Lithuanian Princedom. What effect did these two things have on the situation?

There also was Galician Kingdom, wich later was part of Poland/Hungary/Austria.
Great Lithuanian Princedom and Galician Kingdom was russian-language at the time of mongol invasion.
Then very important historical event Unia between Poland and Lithuanian princedom.
That was turning point.
After that Lithuania and Galicia started to mingle with Poland, Hungary and Austria. I mean changing of customs. Adoption of new words... etc.
Rest of Russia developed in its own way.
Russian princedoms never was too friendly, but before Mongols they developed in similar ways.
After that, western and eastern parts developed in different ways.

Just fo info.
Territory of Great Lithuanian Princedom is mostly modern Belorussia. Interesting that Belorusian language much nearer to Russian than Ukrainian.

PS
i can recomend some books on that topik, but only in Russian :(

[Wild Bill]

... we agree that there was a people that called themselves Rus, and they lived in both modern Ukraine and Russian Federation lands

Most of the southern part of modern Ukraine territory between Crimea and Kiev was "Дикое поле". Wild steppe.
No one risked settle there because of Crimean tatars.

[Sangoma]

Wasn't the initial question about ethnicity, not geography?

[Wild Bill]

Wasn't the initial question about ethnicity, not geography?

Hm... it was just for info. Just ignore it. I can't stop myself when start to talk :)

About ethnicity i answered as full as i could.

[Wild Bill]

Here big book on that question. "Русь и Литва". "Rus and Lithuania".
http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=150664

Rus and Lithuania, because almost whole modern Ukraine and Belorussia was part of Great Lithuanian Princedom.

fb2
http://www.bookfb2.ru/fb2.php?num=27496 ... 0%B2%D0%B0

epub
http://www.bookfb2.ru/epub.php?num=2749 ... 0%B2%D0%B0

[Wild Bill]

The obvious questions are: where do they come from? Why do they have a different language? and indeed, what they had been for four centuries? Alas, these questions hang in the air.

[Sangoma]

What defines ethnicity, race, nationality is a very interesting question. Part of it - fairly small - has to do with physical position and movements: most Georgians are probably born in Georgia, for example. Main part, in my opinion, is self-identification.

So it would be interesting to trace the origins of Ukrainian identity. When and how this group of people decided that they are not Russian, Polish or Lithuanian. How the language evolved etc.

[Wild Bill]

After Unia between Poland and Lithuania started violent polonization of Lithuania. Nobles who became "poles" got bonuses, those who remains "russians" got problems...
Soon all nobles spoke only Polish. And noone asked opinion of peasants.

[Wild Bill]

Offtop again.
Author normanist. For him Varyag=Norman.
May be he is right and i am not :)