The couch thread

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nafod
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Post by nafod »

Dazed wrote: Jason, you did 10 reps strict & 20 reps kipping. You did twice as many reps. Doubling yor workload would have been accomplished by doing 20 reops strictly in the minute.
Another high school physics dropout. He doubled the work because he moved the same weight over twice the distance.
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Post by Fat Cat »

Refresh my memory, where did I ever claim to be an expert, or do anything more than report on those christlike saints in uniform, of whom no civilian may speak? Please, quote me when you respond.
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Post by Ross Hunt »

OK, I'm not interested in the XF-bashing circle jerk, but I really think that using power output as a measure of workout intensity is misguided.

Cross-posted from XF:

Discussing instability, IMO, misses what is most problematic about the use of power as a metric.


I think you are referring to efficiency (how well power is converted into from one form to another). Take the overhead squat and the back squat. The weight, distance and time are the same but to a novice, it takes much more power to lift the same weight with an overhead squat. As you technique becomes more efficient, your max overhead squat gets closer to your max back squat even though there is no increase in strength or conditioning.


If the above were true, the difference between the overhead squat and the back squat would be analogous to the difference between ring dips and parallel dips: The same muscle group would be doing the work, the difference in difficulty would be due to the instability of the implement inherent in the former exercise, and the this instability and the consequent difference in difficulty could be mitigated (although never fully eliminated) by training in the unstable medium.

But this is NOT the case. The overhead squat is not harder than a back squat of the same load because it is unstable--it is harder because your shoulders have to hold the load overhead, and shoulder strength is, in everyone but novices, the limiting factor.

As you technique becomes more efficient, your max overhead squat gets closer to your max back squat even though there is no increase in strength or conditioning.

No it doesn't. Your overhead squat approaches your back squat when your overhead squat-specific shoulder strength increases but your back squat-specific leg strength stays the same. So someone who has a relatively weak overhead and relatively strong legs will increase their overhead squat: back squat ratio by training, whereas someone with a relatively strong overhead and relatively weak legs will decrease their overhead squat: back squat ratio by training.

Take me, for example: My best jerk-grip overhead squat is 230 pounds. My best back squat is 290 pounds. I missed the 235 overhead squat simply because I lacked the leg strength to drive through the sticking point, rather than because I lost the support. If I don't see my overhead : back squat ratio decrease with training, I'm going to be one unhappy camper.

General inference to be drawn from this: Measuring work done by power output abstracts from the fact that different muscle groups handle the loads. According to power output, doing 15 jerk-grip overhead squats with a load equal to your bodyweight is just as hard as doing 15 back squats with a load equal to your bodyweight.

This is not to say that power measurement is useless. Talking about power gets people thinking about the different ways they can make an exercise harder--not just load, but ROM and speed. Fine. But as a metric for measuring overall training effect of a workout--?

-----------------

Another example: Which will burn harder: 3 rounds for time of 10 swings, 5 Bodyweight+25 chins, 5 bodyweight+25 dips? Or 3 rounds for time of 10 swings, 10 95-pound front squats? The second circuit generates more power output, but because the legs are way the hell stronger than the upper body, the latter workout will even be easier with respect to cardiovascular impact. The overall 'oomph' of the workout will be much lower.

Maximal power output is best acheived with incredibly low loads, using the strongest muscle groups. Maximal power output = lackluster conditioning, as far as I can see.

I forgot to be thumotic.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! :megapissed: :megapissed: :megapissed: That's a little more irongarmxesque.
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Post by Jason »

Dazed,

Are you serious ?

WORK equals FORCE x DISTANCE.

I doubled the distance because I did TWICE as many reps.

Here's an easier example:

1 lap around a standard track equals 400m.

I run 1 lap in 1 minute.

Now I run 2 laps in 1 minute. I have doubled my workload since I moved the same mass twice the distance but in the same time frame.

It is simple.

And to your argument about changing the exercise, more nonsense. If I were to beat my time in runnning of course I would have more arm swing, longer or more frequent strides etc etc so I guess that would be different also.Or is it still running?


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Post by Jason »

Ross,

You lost me. Why would it take more "Power" to OHS as compared to a backsquat.Are you moving it faster?

People use "Power" as a metric all the time, like the SSST, or GS.Where athletes see who can perform more work(with the same weight) in same 10 minute time period.

If we both weight 200lb and you snatch the 24kg 250 times in 10 minutes and I do 240 you are more powerful becuase you did more work in the same time.

Some people even consider marathons a power event since people are contested who can cover the same distance in less time.


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Post by Ross Hunt »

Jason wrote:Dazed,

Are you serious ?

WORK equals FORCE x DISTANCE.

I doubled the distance because I did TWICE as many reps.

Here's an easier example:

1 lap around a standard track equals 400m.

I run 1 lap in 1 minute.

Now I run 2 laps in 1 minute. I have doubled my workload since I moved the same mass twice the distance but in the same time frame.

It is simple.

And to your argument about changing the exercise, more nonsense. If I were to beat my time in runnning of course I would have more arm swing, longer or more frequent strides etc etc so I guess that would be different also.Or is it still running?

Nice, but according to that argument the most efficient use you could make of a fifteen-minute period of training time would be to do a 15-minute run at the highest velocity you could sustain for 15 minutes. That would be the way to get the highest work output out of those 15 minutes.

But it wouldn't be the best way to use those 15 minutes for training, unless you're a distance runner. You would get more bang for your buck by running 400s, 100s, or doing speed work, depending on what your goal is. This work would also have more carryover to your 15 minute time than vice versa, because high-end training carries over better to low-end training than vice versa.

Robb Wolf has a good article about this, entitled 'Power Bias, Part II', in one of his PMenu issues: Apparently he's gotten excellent improvements in standard Xfit circuits by having his peopel do a lot of 'segmented circuits'--basically sprints or repetition sets at high velocity with rest periods, done circuit-style. Holy anaeorbic-aerobic training carryover, Batman!
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Post by Jason »

Ross,


You are not talking about the same thing.

I am simply discussing work from a mechanical/physics perspective.

I'm not talking about the best training methods and for what.

I have Robbs articles and like them alot. It's the way I train myself, but, if we had a set period of time, say 10 minutes and if you took 2 minutes rest between 100 meters sprints, I would still do more work in that time period and still be the more powerful athlete.


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Post by Jason »

Nafod,

Technically no one is right since:

If we start and finish an exercise at the same point then no displacement has taken place and no actual work has been performed.

Power = Force x Velocity

Velocity = Time rate change of displacement.

No displacement = no velocity = no power.

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Post by Shafpocalypse Now »

*sign of two dogs fucking*

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Post by AptlyNamed »

Forget the physics model, think in economics. If you were to get paid for total tonnage how would you do it?

Physics is just measuring the movement of the weight, of mass, not the effort involved by the athlete.
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Post by Bram »

Jason wrote:Dazed,

Are you serious ?

WORK equals FORCE x DISTANCE.

I doubled the distance because I did TWICE as many reps.

Here's an easier example:

1 lap around a standard track equals 400m.

I run 1 lap in 1 minute.

Now I run 2 laps in 1 minute. I have doubled my workload since I moved the same mass twice the distance but in the same time frame.

It is simple.

And to your argument about changing the exercise, more nonsense. If I were to beat my time in runnning of course I would have more arm swing, longer or more frequent strides etc etc so I guess that would be different also.Or is it still running?
The force is different, and usually the distance is as well. Kicking your legs unweights your body and gives you upward momentum, reducing the amount of force you apply as you come up.

Usually, with the kipping pull-up form I've seen, the range is reduced. Someone goes partway down, kips, goes partway up and so on.

So force and distance are reduced and the workload is different.

*questioning why I really had to write this out*
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Post by Jason »

The range is not reduced and neither is the force.

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Who accelerates faster? A kipper or a non-kipper? And the weight is constant.

We're not talking about intra and inter muscular tension. You just defeated yourself Bram.

How's this for reduced range?

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Post by stosh »

Jason wrote:Dazed,

Are you serious ?

WORK equals FORCE x DISTANCE.

I doubled the distance because I did TWICE as many reps.
Force is less for a kip as momentum is more in play for the range of motion. Work, thus, is not doubled in this case. Hang off of a scale; do a kip and then do a pullup: the force will drop off major mondo for the kip.
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Post by Ross Hunt »

Jason,

You're right mathematically.

Nafod contended that useful data can be gathered from measuring power output, and that XF works because it is a system that purports to increase power output, and it increases power output. I'm arguing that power output is not useful data and that insofar as XF and similar systems work, it isn't because they increase power output. That's not their distinctive characteristic.





And now an article from Better Homes & Gardens: Designing Your Idyllic Suburban Retreat, by..... Bill Fox?

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Post by Bram »

Jason wrote:The range is not reduced and neither is the force.

Force = Mass x Acceleration.

Who accelerates faster? A kipper or a non-kipper? And the weight is constant.

We're not talking about intra and inter muscular tension. You just defeated yourself Bram.

How's this for reduced range?

http://www.norcalsc.com/gallery/gallery ... videoID=61
Nah, I didn't defeat myself. The biomechanics of each exercise is different so the force, etc. are not linear from kipping to regular pull-ups. You'd have to determine workload for all joint movements in both exercises.

Or you could use common sense and say "hey, kicking with my legs makes it easier."

Am I missing the point, are you guys arguing about something else?
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Post by Jason »

elrodjr,

Force is not less.

Force = m x a

The mass is still 200lb in my case. Let me ask you this, in O-lifting you create momentum and elevation on the bar. So if I Snatch 200lb are you saying that I really didn't Snatch 200lb because I created momentum on the bar?

Momentum = mass x velocity. In a kipping pull-up mass remains constant and velocity increases. It's simple physics damn it.Momentum doesn't change the mass of an object.


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Post by Jason »

No.
You guys are missing the point. We're not talking easier or harder. We're talking about which variation increases workload. It's the kip.

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Post by nafod »

Ross Hunt wrote:Nafod contended that useful data can be gathered from measuring power output, and that XF works because it is a system that purports to increase power output, and it increases power output. I'm arguing that power output is not useful data and that insofar as XF and similar systems work, it isn't because they increase power output. That's not their distinctive characteristic.
To be exact, I contended that useful power output data can be gathered with the tape measure, timer, and knowing how much weight is being lifted each rep. It's not as precise as a dynanometer, no doubt.

As far as the general usefulness of power output data, the 900 lb brains of physiology must think it is important data since so many research studies collect it.

I'd like to read this one paper...
European journal of applied physiology and occupational physiology (Eur. j. appl. physiol. occup. physiol.) ISSN 0301-5548 CODEN EJAPCK
Source / Source
1996, vol. 73, no6, pp. 491-502 (2 p.1/4)

It is well established that for work requiring high power output, endurance time is short, and that low power outputs can be maintained for long periods. Parameters describing this relationship are important in characterising work performance and the capacity of humans as a source of mechanical power. The purpose of this paper is to provide a brief review of the available literature investigating this relationship and its parameters. Most experimental data reflect measurements of endurance times over a range of constant power outputs on the cycle ergometer. Early graphical analyses of these data have been superseded by curve fitting, which in turn has led to establishment of the two component hyperbolic model now embodied in the critical power test. This model has been modified and extended in various ways to account for its shortcomings. In addition, a number of different exercise forms have been studied, and the effects of a variety of secondary factors (training status, age, sex, for example) on the parameters have also been investigated.

EDIT: Here's the paper title: The relationship between power output and endurance: a brief review
Last edited by nafod on Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nafod »

elrodjr wrote: Force is less for a kip as momentum is more in play for the range of motion.
Not sure what you mean, but I will buy that in a kip, you store energy at the bottom when you make the "C" that you use on the next rep, which makes the next rep easier.
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Post by stosh »

Jason wrote:elrodjr,

Force is not less.

Force = m x a
Are you saying acceleration is not different between a pullup and a kip? Surely not.

Mass is the same; acceleration way different. And remember, acceleration is an integral over the distance.
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Post by nafod »

elrodjr wrote:
Jason wrote:elrodjr,

Force is not less.

Force = m x a
Are you saying acceleration is not different between a pullup and a kip? Surely not.

Mass is the same; acceleration way different. And remember, acceleration is an integral over the distance.
They are different. But if we're talking about work, it doesn't matter. The work done is equal to the change in potential energy, which is just equal to the height you raise the weight times the weight.
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Post by rjudo »

If ya'll spent more fucking time squatting instead of pretending that your scientists, MAYBE your max squats would actually exceed 290lbs. :ANAL:

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Post by Grandpa's Spells »

You people are colossally stupid.

Kipping and strict pullups use different muscle groups. They are different exercises. If phyiscal work can be improved by transferring strict upper body work to upper/lower body work by kipping, it can be further improved by just switching to a standing vertical jump that moves your center of mass the same distance. Hell, you're moving the same body weight for the same distance faster and for more reps. Must be better, right?

Couch can't say he cares about work and still say his 100 girls outperform 250 men, unless his girls are going to wear 150 lb. weight vests while they do the WOD.

Hey armchair physicists. Couch only measured the barbell, rather than the center of mass of the athlete + barbell. Using his measurement, a 300 pound man and a 150 pound man of the same height with a 70 lb. BB are doing the same work in thrusters. That is, of course, bullshit.

Remember Couch's definition of "What is Crossfit?"

Your needs and the Olympic athlete’s differ by degree not kind. Increased power, strength, cardiovascular and respiratory endurance, flexibility, stamina, coordination, agility, balance, and coordination are each important to the world’s best athletes and to our grandparents.


This has been, without doubt, proven to be completely false. He's now had years, and never produced an elite athlete at the Olympic or professional level (read: an athlete who competes in sports). Olympians require specificity. Pros require specificity. His theories were exciting, but false.

Anybody who takes Crossfit seriously except as a general GPP program is absolutely retarded.
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Post by nafod »

Grandpa's Spells wrote:You people are colossally stupid.

Kipping and strict pullups use different muscle groups.
You obviously haven't done them. Kipping uses the same muscles as strict pullups, plus others.
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Post by Grandpa's Spells »

nafod wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:You people are colossally stupid.

Kipping and strict pullups use different muscle groups.
You obviously haven't done them. Kipping uses the same muscles as strict pullups, plus others.
You're obviously an idiot. I did kipping PU's 2 sets a day, ~5 days a week, for 12 years. Part of my not-very-well-thought-out athletic S&C program.

I also like how it's "the same muscles, plus others." Retard.
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