IGX

Fat Cat wrote:How are ignorant lower income people supposed to make well informed decisions if their creditors are lying to them?

People should earn the shot at a mortgage and lower income people should not have been allowed mortgages as offered back then....ACORN is on the hook for pushing that and creating an avenue for all the shade and gray.

'Lower Income Ignorant People' (LIIP's) should earn credit in dribs and drabs and while on their way to not being lower income people. Also, we need to remember it wasn't just lower income or ignorant people grabbing those ARM's. Many people with various degrees of money in the bank jumped on them, too as they freed up a lot of cash at the time.

Alot of the protestors are idiots.

However:

The reason we're in the mess we're in is the the government bailed everyone out.

I call Bull Crap! They bailed out the Banks and parts of the auto industry. They have not bailed out the average under water home owner. You do not have to have purchased more home than you could afford to be massively screwed by the loss of your home value.

The politicians encouraged banks to loan money to those that couldn't afford them, implied the government would back the loans via Freddie mack and fanny mae etc, and then bailed everyone out.

I know where you are coming from; but bad loans were still only a percentage of the total; and I think it is much more accurate to say they bailed out their buddies in the banking industry and other select big business; I agree with you that it never should have happened.

The bankers couldn't have made their Derivative Shit Sandwiches without the Shit Mortgages backed by Freddie & Fannie, and encouraged by (mostly Dem) politicians.

This has not recieved as much air play as it should; because the banking industry was allowed to package the loans into Derivatives and Tranches and leverage them multiple times (I have read some were leveraged as many as 7 to 10 times). This leveraging seems to me to be tantamount to allowing them to print money and put it in their pockets. When the bubble burst the bankers then ran with the money they had created; and demanded a bail out from their buddies in congress. The demand to create Mortgages to feed this printing press was a major factor in creating the Mortgage Bubble. The banking industry may have paid back the bail out money, but they have in no way paid for the loss of wealth that they caused. From that view point it is easy to see why the 99% would like to lay this at their feet.

The question is; what needs to be done to get this country out from under the financial crisis that is dragging us down. To be sure we need to cut spending; but that alone is not going to be enough.

Was it Kurt Vonnegut who once mentioned that though America is the richest country in the world, most of its people are poor?

Banking system is out of control and is ruling the world. You can blubber all you want about individual responsibility, but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

ÜberSmet wrote:but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

Says the Russian ex-Pat living in Australia with all the nitty gritty American perspective.

Swamp Fox wrote:You do not have to have purchased more home than you could afford to be massively screwed by the loss of your home value.

Very true, but the blame still does not sit wholly with the banks.

Swamp Fox wrote:
The question is; what needs to be done to get this country out from under the financial crisis that is dragging us down. To be sure we need to cut spending; but that alone is not going to be enough.

Cut spending, quit fighting all over the planet, and let the too big to fails go ahead and fail.

It's going to hurt one way or another. The medicine will always taste bad, but the longer we put it off, the more it'll suck.

baffled wrote:

Swamp Fox wrote:
The question is; what needs to be done to get this country out from under the financial crisis that is dragging us down. To be sure we need to cut spending; but that alone is not going to be enough.

Cut spending, quit fighting all over the planet, and let the too big to fails go ahead and fail.

It's going to hurt one way or another. The medicine will always taste bad, but the longer we put it off, the more it'll suck.

The price in terms of home equity, home loss, rising poverty, and rising unemployment is hard medicine.

ÜberSmet wrote:Was it Kurt Vonnegut who once mentioned that though America is the richest country in the world, most of its people are poor?

Banking system is out of control and is ruling the world. You can blubber all you want about individual responsibility, but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

What language did you first read Kapital in comrade?

Swamp Fox wrote:Alot of the protestors are idiots.

However:

The reason we're in the mess we're in is the the government bailed everyone out.

I call Bull Crap! They bailed out the Banks and parts of the auto industry. They have not bailed out the average under water home owner. You do not have to have purchased more home than you could afford to be massively screwed by the loss of your home value.

Arizona tried to work with Fannie and Freddie-- they were told to go fuck themselves.

Fat Cat wrote:The only caveat I have to what you say here is this: why should a rich person have more influence than a poor person in the political process. Why not just give rich people more votes? I'm not so much disagreeing as I am asking for your rationale for allowing unlimited personal contributions.

Why do good looking guys like me get all the hot pootang they can handle? Why does Ben Affleck still get movie roles? Why does Elizebeth Sue cray herself every night burning with desire for me?

Because life isn't fair & the poposed slolutions are almost always worse than just full disclosure.

Plus, money doesn't always guarantee you success in politics. If all it took was money to win election, Meg Witman would be Governor of CA.

Fat Cat wrote:Again, why? Corporations are allowed to accrue corporate profits, not merely individuals, so if they are allowed the same privileges shouldn't they be accorded the same responsibilities? What is the advantage you perceive in your way?

BTW- I should have stated income taxes, not simply taxes.

Because corporations don't pay income taxes, you do. Corporations just pass on the taxes to their customers. It's a hidden tax. Corporations are just tax collectors for Uncle Sam and the states.

Plus, income taxes are just another control tool for the politicians. They use income taxes as a means to wringing contributions, favors etc from corporations, by handing out tax breaks and goodies. This is why our tax code is riddled like swiss cheese with loop holes that you and I can't take advantage of, but the rich, politicians, and corporation can.

BTW- I'm against all income taxes; corporate or individual. Income taxes are just the whip of the national socialist state. It's used to reward politician, their friends (those that give them money, influence, and power) and control us pleabs.

Remove the threat of income taxes and a couple of things happen.

(1) Corporations might start issuing dividends as the main way to compensate stockholders; instead of stock growth. The threat of income taxes and capital gains taxes results in corporations retaining the profits and concentrating on stock price growth as the main way to compensate stock holders. Something that can be easily manipulated by unscrupulous corporate executives.

(2) freed from collecting income taxes, American businesses would have less regulatory issues to handle. Might make complying with other financial and environmental regulations more easy and affordable. Not to mention, more money to pay employees, buy equipment, etc.. Also, tax compliance eats up a lot of man hours at corporations. Eliminating incomes taxes frees up man hours and saves money.

(3) It will reduce the amount of lobbying by corporations. Simply because, with no income taxes to pay, their is no need for loop holes. Any other unscrupalous loby shit can be eliminated by passing a constitutional ammendment stripping the right from corporations (along with unions, non profits etc.) from making political contributions and lobbying.

(4)Corporate income taxes bring in only 300 billion in taxes, but cause all sorts of economic damage because corporations make all sorts of distorted economic decision to avoid them. Indivuals do the exact same things. Plus, like I stated, their just passing the taxes onto consumers. I say cut out the middle man and tax individuals directly and unhidden. That way the average citizen will know exactly how bad the politicians are screwing them tax wise.

Fat Cat wrote: I'm not a democrat and have not ever supported a democratic candidate for office. Why do you feel compelled to humiliate yourself like this? You're still mad about the historic analysis of Jewry I made and it's clouding your already anemic judgment.

You're worse than a democrat. You're an MSNBC-watching Hawaiian liberal who thinks he's "above" the political fray.

Fat Cat wrote:I never suggested that we have a completely unregulated market. What I did was accurately point out that some of the problems we now face are the result of deregulation my dear ideologue.

ummm...

Fat Cat wrote:It was unregulated free market which created this situation.

I find it interesting I disagree with people on this board all the time but I've only felt compelled to comment when I read complete idiocy that other people have let slide, and yet I've found it necessary to respond to the shit you've spewed twice in the last couple days.

Your comments on Jews are even more ignorant than your comments on the economy.

Mak. Congrats on baiting a good fool. It's been a while, hasn't it?

Look at slovakia. The government got thrown out for voting against the bailout of powerful European bankers (AKA Greek bailout). The new government approved it and now the people of the second poorest country in EU will bailout rich Bankers who already took enormous profits from their risky bets on Greece.

In the US, the bankers committed multiple types of fraud in their approval and sale of millions of loans. There would have been no problem if ALL people were smart enough to only buy what they could actually afford, but they could not have bought the houses without the help of criminal bankers. For the most part, it was the bankers who committed the crimes. It is the honest, hard working middle class who is shouldering the majority of the cost through loss of jobs or stagnant wages along with lower property values. The government keeps interest rates at or near zero to further help banks screwing even further the honest hard working people who have done the right thing their entire lives.

Personally, I am in favor of disruptive movements like "Occupy Wall Street" as well as the Tea Party. It is probably the only way that things will ever change.

jdin wrote: In the US, the bankers committed multiple types of fraud in their approval and sale of millions of loans. There would have been no problem if ALL people were smart enough to only buy what they could actually afford, but they could not have bought the houses without the help of criminal bankers. For the most part, it was the bankers who committed the crimes. It is the honest, hard working middle class who is shouldering the majority of the cost through loss of jobs or stagnant wages along with lower property values. The government keeps interest rates at or near zero to further help banks screwing even further the honest hard working people who have done the right thing their entire lives.

Personally, I am in favor of disruptive movements like "Occupy Wall Street" as well as the Tea Party. It is probably the only way that things will ever change.

Responding to the comment in bold: let's say it was one of the hundreds of shady fly by night companies John Q Steady Eddy went through for his loan. And they did a 'stated income' loan *wink wink*.....the loan officer might steer and suggest, but it was the buyer making the decision to go along and ink the deal. I don't buy the argument that so many just didn't know/understand they were lying. I think the ghetto fabulous knows a scam when they see one and they (and others) ran like hell with it. Again, it was government policy that put it all into play, no sense talking about evil bankers without talking about their buddy Barney Frank and his crew at ACORN who put it all in motion.

Not a mystery what happened here.

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

jdin wrote: In the US, the bankers committed multiple types of fraud in their approval and sale of millions of loans. There would have been no problem if ALL people were smart enough to only buy what they could actually afford, but they could not have bought the houses without the help of criminal bankers. For the most part, it was the bankers who committed the crimes. It is the honest, hard working middle class who is shouldering the majority of the cost through loss of jobs or stagnant wages along with lower property values. The government keeps interest rates at or near zero to further help banks screwing even further the honest hard working people who have done the right thing their entire lives.

Personally, I am in favor of disruptive movements like "Occupy Wall Street" as well as the Tea Party. It is probably the only way that things will ever change.

Responding to the comment in bold: let's say it was one of the hundreds of shady fly by night companies John Q Steady Eddy went through for his loan. And they did a 'stated income' loan *wink wink*.....the loan officer might steer and suggest, but it was the buyer making the decision to go along and ink the deal. I don't buy the argument that so many just didn't know/understand they were lying. I think the ghetto fabulous knows a scam when they see one and they (and others) ran like hell with it. Again, it was government policy that put it all into play, no sense talking about evil bankers without talking about their buddy Barney Frank and his crew at ACORN who put it all in motion.

I am in almost complete agreement with you. I intended a very broad interpretation of the word banker. I also agree that the politicians did their part. Both the Clinton administration and the Bush administration enabled the bankers to do what they did. However, I consider the politicians in both parties to be nothing but employees of the bankers.

The system stinks but the bankers have convinced a large parts of the 99% that either the dems or repubs are the problem instead of the bankers. Regular people blame Obama or Bush instead of directing their anger at the real problem, the people that Bush/Obama work for (which is not the 99%). Even the supreme court sold out giving corporations the same rights as people. No normal decent human being wants to go into politics today so maybe the only answer is to make political service like jury duty, force random people to serve in congress and limit the presidents powers. That is a constitutional amendment I could get behind.

EDIT
All of the people I know that actually own underwater property today are hard working people continuing to pay off their loans as opposed to people walking away from their acts of poor judgement or out and out fraud. They are true victims of the bankers. I do realize a lot of people fall into the other category.

Shaping policy aside, bear in mind that banks to this day are able to forge documents in order to repossess homes they can't even prove they own the mortgage to. This really isn't a Democrat/Republican thing, as desperate as the banks are to frame it that way. Perjury, forgery, and theft are not based on political leanings, they're just crimes, and they haven't been held to account.

Put the IGx crew in charge of America for a week. I've seen more good ideas in this thread than anywhere else.

Andy78 wrote:Mak. Congrats on baiting a good fool. It's been a while, hasn't it?

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

ÜberSmet wrote:but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

Says the Russian ex-Pat living in Australia with all the nitty gritty American perspective.

No need to be a rocket science to see what's happening.

ÜberSmet wrote:

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

ÜberSmet wrote:but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

Says the Russian ex-Pat living in Australia with all the nitty gritty American perspective.

No need to be a rocket science to see what's happening.

I know a rocket science. Smart guy.

Turdacious wrote:

ÜberSmet wrote:Was it Kurt Vonnegut who once mentioned that though America is the richest country in the world, most of its people are poor?

Banking system is out of control and is ruling the world. You can blubber all you want about individual responsibility, but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

What language did you first read Kapital in comrade?

In Russian, though only small parts of it. I see the sarcasm, but the funniest thing is that Das Kapital is one of the most significant economic publications in history, building on the work of Adam Smith. These two plus John Keynes are the fathers of the economic science as it exists today.

Herv100 wrote:

ÜberSmet wrote:

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

ÜberSmet wrote:but in essence greedy fucks lie through their teeth to the poor and ingorant and scam them out of whatever money they have.

Says the Russian ex-Pat living in Australia with all the nitty gritty American perspective.

No need to be a rocket science to see what's happening.

I know a rocket science. Smart guy.

=D> =D> =D>