Occupy Wall Street

Thatcher II · Post by **Thatcher II** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:52 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:The only caveat I have to what you say here is this: why should a rich person have more influence than a poor person in the political process. Why not just give rich people more votes? I'm not so much disagreeing as I am asking for your rationale for allowing unlimited personal contributions.

Why do good looking guys like me get all the hot pootang they can handle? Why does Ben Affleck still get movie roles? Why does Elizebeth Sue cray herself every night burning with desire for me?

Because life isn't fair & the poposed slolutions are almost always worse than just full disclosure.

Plus, money doesn't always guarantee you success in politics. If all it took was money to win election, Meg Witman would be Governor of CA.

Fat Cat wrote:Again, why? Corporations are allowed to accrue corporate profits, not merely individuals, so if they are allowed the same privileges shouldn't they be accorded the same responsibilities? What is the advantage you perceive in your way?
BTW- I should have stated income taxes, not simply taxes.

Because corporations don't pay income taxes, you do. Corporations just pass on the taxes to their customers. It's a hidden tax. Corporations are just tax collectors for Uncle Sam and the states.

Plus, income taxes are just another control tool for the politicians. They use income taxes as a means to wringing contributions, favors etc from corporations, by handing out tax breaks and goodies. This is why our tax code is riddled like swiss cheese with loop holes that you and I can't take advantage of, but the rich, politicians, and corporation can.

BTW- I'm against all income taxes; corporate or individual. Income taxes are just the whip of the national socialist state. It's used to reward politician, their friends (those that give them money, influence, and power) and control us pleabs.

Remove the threat of income taxes and a couple of things happen.

(1) Corporations might start issuing dividends as the main way to compensate stockholders; instead of stock growth. The threat of income taxes and capital gains taxes results in corporations retaining the profits and concentrating on stock price growth as the main way to compensate stock holders. Something that can be easily manipulated by unscrupulous corporate executives.

(2) freed from collecting income taxes, American businesses would have less regulatory issues to handle. Might make complying with other financial and environmental regulations more easy and affordable. Not to mention, more money to pay employees, buy equipment, etc.. Also, tax compliance eats up a lot of man hours at corporations. Eliminating incomes taxes frees up man hours and saves money.

(3) It will reduce the amount of lobbying by corporations. Simply because, with no income taxes to pay, their is no need for loop holes. Any other unscrupalous loby shit can be eliminated by passing a constitutional ammendment stripping the right from corporations (along with unions, non profits etc.) from making political contributions and lobbying.

(4)Corporate income taxes bring in only 300 billion in taxes, but cause all sorts of economic damage because corporations make all sorts of distorted economic decision to avoid them. Indivuals do the exact same things. Plus, like I stated, their just passing the taxes onto consumers. I say cut out the middle man and tax individuals directly and unhidden. That way the average citizen will know exactly how bad the politicians are screwing them tax wise.

For someone who hates California, you sound a lot like a Greg Glassman libertarian Santa Barbara loving tit.

Andy83 · Post by **Andy83** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:04 pm

No reason why millionaires and billionaires can't pay their fair share. That's why the new tax form has a line where they can pay as much as they voluntarily want to. Fair enough?

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:12 pm

Andy78 wrote:No reason why millionaires and billionaires can't pay their fair share. That's why the new tax form has a line where they can pay as much as they voluntarily want to. Fair enough?

Problem is systemic, not acute. Hence policy changes versus donations.

Thanks for playing.

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:41 pm

jdin wrote:All of the people I know that actually own underwater property today are hard working people continuing to pay off their loans as opposed to people walking away from their acts of poor judgement or out and out fraud. They are true victims of the bankers. I do realize a lot of people fall into the other category.

Are you confusing mortgage brokers with bankers or just lumping them all together? Can you please explain how bankers victimized your friends?

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:46 pm

mortgage brokers work with banks and both profit when you borrow...don't be coy

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:06 am

For the ersatz-conservative turnips on this board who have a hard time comprehending the importance of democratic direct action:

"The greatest threat to our economy is neither corporations nor the government. The greatest threat to our economy is both of them working together," Sinclair writes. "There are currently two sizable coalitions of angry citizens that are almost on the same page about that, and they're too busy insulting each other to notice."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ee/246687/

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:06 pm

Fat Cat wrote:mortgage brokers work with banks and both profit when you borrow...don't be coy

True, the bank lending to you makes a spread and the broker gets a sales commission. That does not make them one and the same. You need to understand the distinction between the brokers and banks, and even further distinction between the IBs buying/restructuring pooled loans and actual lenders.

Mortgage brokers sell loans, and I agree, there were a lot of shady people encouraging Miguel and Shadynasty to lie on their applications. But, these are not the "bankers" that structure and sell the evil derivatives. Investment banks bought those mortgages because they could transfer the risk to pensions, etc via MBS and make some cash in the process. (That's what they do- buy shit or agree to underwrite shit and then sell it to people that want to be compensated for taking on the risk) This allowed the brokers and retail/commercial lenders to continue making loans because they no longer had any skin in the game regarding Miguel paying his mortgage. Demand for those instruments was driven by a desire for highly rated bonds (Here's where the ratings agencies fucked up) that paid more than treasuries. I'll propose that this risk seeking behavior was due to public and private plans trying to chase excess return due to unfunded pension liabilities created by greedy unions. Having an easy avenue to transfer the risk freed up banks to churn out more and more mortgages, demand for which was driven by the government encouraging poor people to own homes.

The result of all this was a transfer of the risk on mortgages from the lender to various asset owners. Note that most of these purchasers were sophisticated investors who did their own due diligence on the mortgage pools. When people stopped paying their mortgages everything blew up.

I fail to see how the investment banks are the "evil" in all of this. Yes they did some stupid things, namely leveraging the shit out of themselves and creating a huge synthetic CDO market funded with short term CP and they have lost fuckloads of money. But, they aren't the cause of the crisis. Everybody had a part in the framework- Government, home"owners", brokers, lenders, ratings agencies, IB's, asset owners (public and private), and unions.

You may have a legitimate gripe if you believe investment banks blatantly lied or were illegally representing investments to ratings agencies and purchasers. There are plenty of pending lawsuits and I'm sure that in some cases banks mislead investors. There is a certain amount of that all the time and the lines of "misleading" someone are often blurry. I think that in the end the majority of these transactions will come to light as just a fact of the realization that tail risk might have been a little fatter than some of the models predicted.

The Ginger Beard Man · Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:27 pm

Let's not forget Joe Whitey in the burbs.
Lots of middle and upper middle class people wanted more house than they could afford, and used their house as an ATM. Why drive a Honda when you can drive a BMW? Jacuzzi? No problem. And marble countertops and a Viking range. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:30 pm

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=219002

I would love to go to a doc, but I have no insurance and very little extra cash to pay out of pocket. That puts a limit on what I can do.

I will see what can be done for a doc visit.

Is Dunn an American? For the record: this could not happen in the Evil Marxist Soviet Russia.

The Ginger Beard Man · Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:31 pm

When the protestors took that field trip the other day to the homes of evil capitalists, why did they quietly walk past the home of hedge fund manager and serial purchaser of politicians George Soros?

Holland Oates · Post by **Holland Oates** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:33 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:Let's not forget Joe Whitey in the burbs.
Lots of middle and upper middle class people wanted more house than they could afford, and used their house as an ATM. Why drive a Honda when you can drive a BMW? Jacuzzi? No problem. And marble countertops and a Viking range. There's plenty of blame to go around.

This. Along with house flippers, McMansions, and building way too many houses in horrible places. Whole lot of stupid to go along with unscrupulous bankers.

WildGorillaMan · Post by **WildGorillaMan** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:55 pm

Testiclaw · Post by **Testiclaw** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:58 pm

We can't even smoke a doobie due because old white folks want to be tough on crime and won't support any "small government" politician that doesn't push for even stricter sentencing for drugs.

tough old man · Post by **tough old man** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:24 pm

Historical LULZ!!

Blaidd Drwg posted:

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:38 pm

ÜberSmet wrote:viewtopic.php?f=2&t=219002

I would love to go to a doc, but I have no insurance and very little extra cash to pay out of pocket. That puts a limit on what I can do.

I will see what can be done for a doc visit.

Is Dunn an American? For the record: this could not happen in the Evil Marxist Soviet Russia.

Is that because male life expectancy is so low that they don't live long enough to need health care?

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:06 pm

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:31 pm

I say fuck all of you, 1% or 99%. In the end, it's the 3% is who will matter and will try to set things right again.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:31 pm

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:55 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:14 pm

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

=D> =D> =D>

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:17 pm

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:

That from Occupy Detroit?

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:18 pm

hahahaha really? The fucking UAW? hahahahahahahahahahahaha at the 99%.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:33 pm

An Attorney's union? That's fucked up.

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:37 pm

Turdacious wrote:An Attorney's union? That's fucked up.

Please tell me you're joking... http://www.uaw.org/

Fuzzy Dunlop · Post by **Fuzzy Dunlop** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:41 pm

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:Let's not forget Joe Whitey in the burbs.
Lots of middle and upper middle class people wanted more house than they could afford, and used their house as an ATM. Why drive a Honda when you can drive a BMW? Jacuzzi? No problem. And marble countertops and a Viking range. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Keeping up with the Jones' and all of that... Agreed. I just wanted to say Shadynasty.

http://latf99p.com/

IGX

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