The argument being that the myth of Jesus is an amalgam of pre-existent gods and myths, some of which were also sun gods.
That PDF gives the same inaccurate info on Horus that the video does. One caught in one set of fabrications, you can't trust anything it says without checking for yourself.
Hey I don't pose as an expert, but I'll take you up on your admonition to investigate for myself. Please point out specifically what passage you are referring to.
But let me ask you, are you asserting that the bible itself is free of fabrication or inaccuracies? I mean, I know it's the infallible word of god, but that aside.
I made no claims about the bible. I'm just saying don't depend on info from people who get caught telling lies. This is actually kind of funny to me because the last religious discussion I got involved in (evolution) I was apparently viewed as being anti-religion because I think evolution is real. Now I suppose I'm pro-religion because I think you should argue from actual facts and not tell convenient lies. Go figure.
Schlegel wrote:I made no claims about the bible. I'm just saying don't depend on info from people who get caught telling lies. This is actually kind of funny to me because the last religious discussion I got involved in (evolution) I was apparently viewed as being anti-religion because I think evolution is real. Now I suppose I'm pro-religion because I think you should argue from actual facts and not tell convenient lies. Go figure.
I'm just looking for an honest conversation, which kinda means applying the same rules to both sides. I'm sure you agree.
Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions — the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years — have gained wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity — until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document.
"When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything," said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" and a co-editor of the new book. "Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible."
"Etz Hayim," compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text, a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as the author of "The Chosen"), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology...
....Equally striking for many readers will be the essay "Biblical Archaeology," by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. "There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's sojourn in that country," he writes, "and the evidence that does exist is negligible and indirect." The few indirect pieces of evidence, like the use of Egyptian names, he adds, "are far from adequate to corroborate the historicity of the biblical account." ...
...The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel – not one shard of pottery."....
...The reaction to the rabbi's talk ranged from admiration at his courage to dismay at his timing to anger at his audacity. Reported in Jewish publications around the world, the sermon brought him a flood of letters accusing him of undermining the most fundamental teachings of Judaism. But he also received many messages of support. "I can't tell you how many rabbis called me, e- mailed me and wrote me, saying, `God bless you for saying what we all believe,' " Rabbi Wolpe said. He attributes the "explosion" set off by his sermon to "the reluctance of rabbis to say what they really believe."
I think myths are nearly always a layer cake of leftovers but Jesus was a real dude as far as legit historians are concerned.
It's easy to believe there was once a charismatic day laborer named Jesus who preferred prostitutes and fishing to a days work...I know several dudes just like that.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
But still, the significant areas of overlap between so many of these myths, and the astrological underpinnings, are too great the throw out on the basis of a few straggling details. If others may choose to let those few details dissuade them from consideration of the whole, I think that's an even greater intellectual dishonesty -- especially when far, far less rigor is applied to the very documents they stake their faith upon.
Thud, I just gave a few examples because I hate typing, but virtually all the parallels they gave for Horus were made up. After that I didn't even check all the other examples of myths because after telling me 10 lies in a row, why should I bother?
LOL at David Icke and atheists being on the same fabricated page. And they claim the bible is bullshit! You couldn't make this stuff up. Only they (and David Icke) did.....
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, I don't care to fact check every one of these, but the one I did was Isis.
When Amun was assimilated with Ra, his wife Mut merged with Ra's wife, Isis-Hathor, as the composite deity Mut-Isis-Nekhbet. Mut was a mother goddess, like Isis, but was generally considered to be infertile and virginal. Thus it was suggested that Isis became pregnant by magical means and was still a virgin. This is an interesting version of the idea of a virginal birth in which the power is firmly placed with the mother and not the (deceased) father. The situation was further complicated by the fact that Amun had become associated with Min and Amun-Min in turn was associated with both Ra and Horus, but was not so easily associated with Osiris (the deceased husband of Isis). As a result, Isis was sometimes described as the lover of Min, but was also occasionally described as his mother when Horus was described as her husband...
...Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary". Thus although her last temple closed in 550AD, worship of Isis never stopped, just changed form. There is certainly more than a passing resemblence between images of the two, and both were (according to myth) virgins when they concieved their holy offspring.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, I don't care to fact check every one of these, but the one I did was Isis.
When Amun was assimilated with Ra, his wife Mut merged with Ra's wife, Isis-Hathor, as the composite deity Mut-Isis-Nekhbet. Mut was a mother goddess, like Isis, but was generally considered to be infertile and virginal. Thus it was suggested that Isis became pregnant by magical means and was still a virgin. This is an interesting version of the idea of a virginal birth in which the power is firmly placed with the mother and not the (deceased) father. The situation was further complicated by the fact that Amun had become associated with Min and Amun-Min in turn was associated with both Ra and Horus, but was not so easily associated with Osiris (the deceased husband of Isis). As a result, Isis was sometimes described as the lover of Min, but was also occasionally described as his mother when Horus was described as her husband...
...Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary". Thus although her last temple closed in 550AD, worship of Isis never stopped, just changed form. There is certainly more than a passing resemblence between images of the two, and both were (according to myth) virgins when they concieved their holy offspring.
In the typical form of her myth, Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus by him.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, experts may disagree (are you one?) but that's not the same as making stuff up.
The ancient Egyptian designation for Osiris was Asar or Azar. Now, when the Egyptians spoke of their Gods they indicated them with “the” and so we would have had “the Azar.” This term “the” also meant Lord or God, like the Greek word for God The-os or Theos. One of the Hebrew terms for Lord was El and was applied to their many deities, such as El-Shaddai or El-hoim. So when the Hebraic writers included Osiris in their myths they put him in as El-Azar The Lord Osiris. This in the later Latin translation was changed to El-Azar-us. This use of the “us” was the way that masculine names ended under the Roman language. In fact, in Arabic Lazarus is still spelt El-Azir, hence missing the “us”. So we now have El-Azar-us, which reduced further into Lazarus. In this way the Egyptian, or should we say much older mythos, became the literal truth of the Biblical record.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, experts may disagree (are you one?) but that's not the same as making stuff up.
The ancient Egyptian designation for Osiris was Asar or Azar. Now, when the Egyptians spoke of their Gods they indicated them with “the” and so we would have had “the Azar.” This term “the” also meant Lord or God, like the Greek word for God The-os or Theos. One of the Hebrew terms for Lord was El and was applied to their many deities, such as El-Shaddai or El-hoim. So when the Hebraic writers included Osiris in their myths they put him in as El-Azar The Lord Osiris. This in the later Latin translation was changed to El-Azar-us. This use of the “us” was the way that masculine names ended under the Roman language. In fact, in Arabic Lazarus is still spelt El-Azir, hence missing the “us”. So we now have El-Azar-us, which reduced further into Lazarus. In this way the Egyptian, or should we say much older mythos, became the literal truth of the Biblical record.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, I don't care to fact check every one of these, but the one I did was Isis.
When Amun was assimilated with Ra, his wife Mut merged with Ra's wife, Isis-Hathor, as the composite deity Mut-Isis-Nekhbet. Mut was a mother goddess, like Isis, but was generally considered to be infertile and virginal. Thus it was suggested that Isis became pregnant by magical means and was still a virgin. This is an interesting version of the idea of a virginal birth in which the power is firmly placed with the mother and not the (deceased) father. The situation was further complicated by the fact that Amun had become associated with Min and Amun-Min in turn was associated with both Ra and Horus, but was not so easily associated with Osiris (the deceased husband of Isis). As a result, Isis was sometimes described as the lover of Min, but was also occasionally described as his mother when Horus was described as her husband...
...Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary". Thus although her last temple closed in 550AD, worship of Isis never stopped, just changed form. There is certainly more than a passing resemblence between images of the two, and both were (according to myth) virgins when they concieved their holy offspring.
In the typical form of her myth, Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus by him.
Not exactly a virgin, but then incest isn't considered abnormal by some people, is it?
Neither is immaculate conception.
Osiris was once the Pharaoh of Egypt; his rule was remembered as a Golden Age of bliss. However, Seth, Osiris’ brother, became jealous and killed him and dumped his body into the Nile, whence it floated down the river and out into the Mediterranean Sea. Isis, both the sister and wife of Osiris, after many peregrinations finally located Osiris' dead body and brought it back to Egypt. By use of magic, Isis was able to conceive by the spirit of the dead Osiris and subsequently gave birth to a son named Horus.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, I don't care to fact check every one of these, but the one I did was Isis.
When Amun was assimilated with Ra, his wife Mut merged with Ra's wife, Isis-Hathor, as the composite deity Mut-Isis-Nekhbet. Mut was a mother goddess, like Isis, but was generally considered to be infertile and virginal. Thus it was suggested that Isis became pregnant by magical means and was still a virgin. This is an interesting version of the idea of a virginal birth in which the power is firmly placed with the mother and not the (deceased) father. The situation was further complicated by the fact that Amun had become associated with Min and Amun-Min in turn was associated with both Ra and Horus, but was not so easily associated with Osiris (the deceased husband of Isis). As a result, Isis was sometimes described as the lover of Min, but was also occasionally described as his mother when Horus was described as her husband...
...Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary". Thus although her last temple closed in 550AD, worship of Isis never stopped, just changed form. There is certainly more than a passing resemblence between images of the two, and both were (according to myth) virgins when they concieved their holy offspring.
In the typical form of her myth, Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus by him.
Not exactly a virgin, but then incest isn't considered abnormal by some people, is it?
Neither is immaculate conception.
Osiris was once the Pharaoh of Egypt; his rule was remembered as a Golden Age of bliss. However, Seth, Osiris’ brother, became jealous and killed him and dumped his body into the Nile, whence it floated down the river and out into the Mediterranean Sea. Isis, both the sister and wife of Osiris, after many peregrinations finally located Osiris' dead body and brought it back to Egypt. By use of magic, Isis was able to conceive by the spirit of the dead Osiris and subsequently gave birth to a son named Horus.
What is that website you're linking to? Is it an historical source? Or is it even merely a peer/commons reviewed encylcolpedia like wikipedia? I think we both know the answer.....
The bible is only bullshit, if you look at it from the perspective of the bible as a history book. Jews have always learnt that the Torah is not a history book, and whilst much of it is true, much of it is allegorical as well.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, experts may disagree (are you one?) but that's not the same as making stuff up.
The ancient Egyptian designation for Osiris was Asar or Azar. Now, when the Egyptians spoke of their Gods they indicated them with “the” and so we would have had “the Azar.” This term “the” also meant Lord or God, like the Greek word for God The-os or Theos. One of the Hebrew terms for Lord was El and was applied to their many deities, such as El-Shaddai or El-hoim. So when the Hebraic writers included Osiris in their myths they put him in as El-Azar The Lord Osiris. This in the later Latin translation was changed to El-Azar-us. This use of the “us” was the way that masculine names ended under the Roman language. In fact, in Arabic Lazarus is still spelt El-Azir, hence missing the “us”. So we now have El-Azar-us, which reduced further into Lazarus. In this way the Egyptian, or should we say much older mythos, became the literal truth of the Biblical record.
Except El'azar is a already extant Hebrew name (one of Aaron's sons) that predates the new testament, and means "My God has Helped" or "God is my Help". The "azar" part is a regular verb, used multiple times on it's own and there's no evidence that this is anything but a co-incidence. This is called a "false cognate", a word that sounds like another word but is actually not related. If you can somehow give the ancient Hebrew word an Egyptian source I suppose this could be squeezed back in, but linguists apparently believed it to derive from a Phoenician root. Not surprising since the Phoenicians lived in Canaan and the Hebrews were never in Egypt.
Collision Of Lives is a good documentary where Christopher Hitchens and Doug Wilson go on a promotional book tour debating each other about religion. I highly recommend it. Both sides get served at different times and both present compelling arguments.
Th entire film is on youtube.
Schlegel wrote:Thud, my examples for the video are in that PDF as well. They throw in a bunch of stuff that isn't part of any Horus myth- claiming Isis was named Mary or Meri (not so), that she had a virgin birth (so very, very not so), that Horus raised a guy named El-Azar-Us from the dead. The latter is patently not an Egyptian name and not in any recorded Egyptian myths. They are just inventing stuff. I don't have a problem with anybody wanting to argue their views either way, but it should be done honestly.
Hey, I don't care to fact check every one of these, but the one I did was Isis.
When Amun was assimilated with Ra, his wife Mut merged with Ra's wife, Isis-Hathor, as the composite deity Mut-Isis-Nekhbet. Mut was a mother goddess, like Isis, but was generally considered to be infertile and virginal. Thus it was suggested that Isis became pregnant by magical means and was still a virgin. This is an interesting version of the idea of a virginal birth in which the power is firmly placed with the mother and not the (deceased) father. The situation was further complicated by the fact that Amun had become associated with Min and Amun-Min in turn was associated with both Ra and Horus, but was not so easily associated with Osiris (the deceased husband of Isis). As a result, Isis was sometimes described as the lover of Min, but was also occasionally described as his mother when Horus was described as her husband...
...Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary". Thus although her last temple closed in 550AD, worship of Isis never stopped, just changed form. There is certainly more than a passing resemblence between images of the two, and both were (according to myth) virgins when they concieved their holy offspring.
In the typical form of her myth, Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus by him.
Not exactly a virgin, but then incest isn't considered abnormal by some people, is it?
Neither is immaculate conception.
Osiris was once the Pharaoh of Egypt; his rule was remembered as a Golden Age of bliss. However, Seth, Osiris’ brother, became jealous and killed him and dumped his body into the Nile, whence it floated down the river and out into the Mediterranean Sea. Isis, both the sister and wife of Osiris, after many peregrinations finally located Osiris' dead body and brought it back to Egypt. By use of magic, Isis was able to conceive by the spirit of the dead Osiris and subsequently gave birth to a son named Horus.
What is that website you're linking to? Is it an historical source? Or is it even merely a peer/commons reviewed encylcolpedia like wikipedia? I think we both know the answer.....
Dude, this is from your own crappy wiki source:
Enraged, Set chopped Osiris's body into fourteen pieces and scattered them all over Egypt to ensure that Isis could never find Osiris again for a proper burial.[11][12]
Isis and her sister Nephthys went looking for these pieces, but could only find thirteen of the fourteen. Fish had swallowed the last piece, his phallus, so Isis made him a new one with magic, putting his body back together after which they conceived Horus.
If to you that's corporeal sex, so be it. The point is Egyptian mythology considered her a virgin because she represents the house of Virgo which gives birth to the Sun.
I think you might find their concepts of one god, the sun god, Ra, very interesting to see how it might relate to Jesus, also a sun god. (Light=Good vs Dark=Evil)
God is one and alone, and none other existeth with Him--God is the One, the One who hath made all things--God is a spirit, a hidden spirit, the spirit of spirits, the great spirit of the Egyptians, the divine spirit--God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning, He hath existed from old and was when nothing else had being. He existed when nothing else existed, and what existeth He created after He had come into being, He is the Father of beginnings--God is the eternal One, He is eternal and infinite and endureth for ever and aye--God is hidden and no man knoweth His form. No man hath been able to seek out His likeness; He is hidden to gods and men, and He is a mystery unto His creatures. No man knoweth how to know Him--His name remaineth hidden; His name is a mystery unto His children. His names are innumerable, they are manifold and none knoweth their number--God is truth and He liveth by truth and He feedeth thereon. He is the king of truth, and He hath stablished the earth thereupon--God is life and through Him only man liveth. He giveth life to man, He breatheth the breath of life into his nostrils--God is father and mother, the father of fathers, and the mother of mothers. He begetteth, but was never begotten; He produceth, but was never produced; He begat himself and produced himself. He createth, but was never created; He is the maker of his own form, and the fashioner of His own body--God Himself is existence, He endureth without increase or diminution, He multiplieth Himself millions of times, and He is manifold in forms and in members--God hath made the universe, and He hath created all that therein is; He is the Creator of what is in this world, and of what was, of what is, and of what shall be. He is the Creator of the heavens, and of the earth, and of the deep, and of the water, and of the mountains. God hath stretched out the heavens and founded the earth-What His heart conceived straightway came to pass, and when He hath spoken, it cometh to pass and endureth for ever--God is the father of the gods; He fashioned men and formed the gods--God is merciful unto those who reverence Him, and He heareth him that calleth upon Him. God knoweth him that acknowledgeth Him, He rewardeth him that serveth Him, and He protecteth him that followeth Him.[1]
And
"This is the sacred god, the lord of all the gods, Amen-Ra, the lord of the throne of the world, the prince of Apt,[3] the sacred soul who came into being in the beginning, the great god who liveth by right and truth, the first ennead which gave birth unto the other two enneads,[4] the being in whom every god existeth, the One of One,[5] the creator of the things which came into being when the earth took form in the beginning, whose births are hidden, whose forms are manifold, and whose growth cannot be known. The sacred Form, beloved, terrible and mighty in his two risings (?), the lord of space, the mighty one of the form of Khepera, who came into existence through Khepera, the lord of the form of Khepera; when he came into being nothing existed except himself. He shone upon the earth from primeval time [in the form of] the Disk, the prince of light and radiance. He giveth light and radiance. He giveth light unto all peoples. He saileth over heaven and never resteth, and on the morrow his vigour is stablished as before; having become old [to-day], he becometh young again to-morrow. He mastereth the bounds of eternity, he goeth roundabout heaven, and entereth into the Tuat to illumine the two lands which he hath created. When the divine (or mighty) God,[6] moulded himself, the heavens and the earth were made by his conception.[1] He is the prince of princes, the mightiest of the mighty, he is greater than the gods, he is the young bull with sharp pointed horns, and he protecteth the world in his great name 'Eternity cometh with its power and bringing therewith the bounds (?) of everlastingness.' He is the firstborn god, the god who existed from the beginning, the governor of the world by reason of his strength, the terrible one of the two lion-gods,[2] the aged one, the form of Khepera which existeth in all the gods, the lion of fearsome glance, the governor terrible by reason of his two eyes,[3] the lord who shooteth forth flame [therefrom] against his enemies. He is the primeval water which floweth forth in its season to make to live all that cometh forth upon his potter's wheel.[4] He is the disk of the Moon, the beauties whereof pervade heaven and earth, the untiring and beneficent king, whose will germinateth from rising to setting, from whose divine eyes men and women come forth, and from whose mouth the gods do come, and [by whom] food and meat and drink are made and provided, and [by whom] the things which exist are created. He is the lord of time and he traverseth eternity; he is the aged one who reneweth his youth he hath multitudes of eyes and myriads of ears; his rays are the guides of millions of men he is the lord of life and giveth unto those who love him the whole earth, and they are under the protection of his face. When he goeth forth he worketh unopposed, and no man can make of none effect that which he hath done. His name is gracious, and the love of him is sweet; and at the dawn all people make supplication unto him through his mighty power and terrible strength, and every god lieth in fear of him. He is the young bull that destroyeth the wicked, and his strong arm fighteth against his foes. Through him did the earth come into being in the beginning. He is the Soul which shineth through his divine eyes,[3] he is the Being endowed with power and the maker of all that hath come into being, and he ordered the world, and he cannot be known. He is the King who maketh kings to reign, and he directeth the world in his course; gods and goddesses bow down in adoration before his Soul by reason of the awful terror which belongeth unto him. He hath gone before and hath stablished all that cometh after him, and he made the universe in the beginning by his secret counsels. He is the Being who cannot be known, and he is more hidden than all the gods. He maketh the Disk to be his vicar, and he himself cannot be known, and he hideth himself from that which cometh forth from him. He is a bright flame of fire, mighty in splendours, he can be seen only in the form in which he showeth himself, and he can be gazed upon only when he manifesteth himself, and that which is in him cannot be understood. At break of day all peoples make supplication unto him, and when he riseth with hues of orange and saffron among the company of the gods he becometh the greatly desired one of every god. The god Nu appeareth with the breath of the north wind in this hidden god who maketh for untold millions of men the decrees which abide for ever; his decrees "are gracious and well doing, and they fall not to the ground until they have fulfilled their purpose. He giveth long life and multiplieth the years of those who are favoured by him, he is the gracious protector of him whom he setteth in his heart, and he is the fashioner of eternity and everlastingness. He is the king of the North and of the South, Amen-Ra, king of the gods, the lord of heaven, and of earth and of the waters and of the mountains, with whose coming into being the earth began its existence, the mighty one, more princely than all the gods of the first company thereof."
Beer Jew wrote:The bible is only bullshit, if you look at it from the perspective of the bible as a history book. Jews have always learnt that the Torah is not a history book, and whilst much of it is true, much of it is allegorical as well.
This. I am continually amazed at how intellectually stunted most atheist V theist arguments are. They tend to dwell almost exclusively on literal interpretations of millenia-old folk tales (translated numerous times and rarely quoted using the original text). Dawkins is one of the worst at this.
The most powerful statement of faith I heard from a Christian was that he didn't care if the life of Jesus as it's told in the Gospels was literally true, partially true or entirely mythical, he was still committed to aiming to live by the ideals it presented. That impressed me quite a lot.
As a disclaimer I'm not a Christian, have never been baptised and was raised by atheist parents, (who appear to love me, even if this thread has now taught me that they cannot).
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