IGX

Darth, you cannot be seriously be saying only minor Constitutional violations are totally ok and there's a significant portion of this problem that can be reduced to range time and light trigger pulls. really?

Yep. He'd love to keep the no-knocks for use on "darkie shitbags." As for the ammo and range time thing, that's him beating off to guns/ammo/amurrika obsession.

johno wrote:This counting rounds stuff is clueless bullshit.
If one cop has to put down a bad guy, he will shoot until the bad guy drops. It might take two, four, or ten rounds.
If five cops have to put down a bad guy, they will ALL shoot until the bad guy drops. No surprise that Mr. Bad Guy then might absorb ten, twenty, or fifty rounds.

That's reductionist. You come home and find a loved one shot once...or you come home and find a loved one shot 50 times. Which is worse?

Jezebel Jones wrote:Yep. He'd love to keep the no-knocks for use on "darkie shitbags." As for the ammo and range time thing, that's him beating off to guns/ammo/amurrika obsession.

No, plenty of dirt bags are brought down and captured in no knocks, everyone here votes and those we voted in have said No knocks are OK. Dont like it raise a stink, make it an issue and try and change it. For me we have far bigger subversions of the Constitution than that to worry about before this. If you were in power would you get rid of them? (Not my fault that alot of shitbags are dark or that alot of Dykes are rude cunts who think they have a dick and should interject when men are speaking. Things just happen alot that way. )

As for the ammo and range time it's not about beating off (or jammin the dildo in your case ) it's about the fact that these guys have a job that requires them to carry a weapon and it be great since they get so much more leverage over John Q. Citizen that they actually be much better trained and way more profficient than they are. I outshot most of the cops who came to Shooter's Emporium as an 18 year old, by a wide margin. Used to unnerve some of them as I had hair down to the middle of my back. "Glad your on our side Son." "I'm on my side.".

When I have talked to cops about this they get into the availability of range time, ammo budgets and the fact that between paperwork, actually patroling and/or investigating and going to sensativity training, they don't get the time to shoot much. This leads to hurried practice around the time they have to qualify. I know a female detective who hates this as her dept. makes her carry a Glock w/ the NY trigger.

My point is it that budgets should prioritize range time , ammo and continuos training. They don't need to be Delta level combat marksmen but they should not be outshot by an 18 year old, casually fucking around the range. (even when it's one that had the training I did.)

Make 100 rounds a week a requirement. Make quals harder (I did the BSO standards with a fucking hangover and 2 hours of sleep once. beat the 3 cops and made $25)

We all have our bitches about law enforcement but only the stupidist would think we don't need them. If I was in charge they would all go to a 2 year Acadamy where they would get the law drilled into them to the equevalence of a 4 year degree, hand to hand, tacticle firearms, Spanish and ethics training. They'd all carry full auto Glocks with 5.5# trigger pulls. They would also face execution if they strait up murder a civillian like in the case we are talking about. Better training, better tools Higher standards would not make perfect Law Enforcement (no such animal) but bet it would make better, with less shit like the OP and less cops outgunned by trash.

to serve and protect

Fat Cat wrote: That's reductionist. You come home and find a loved one shot once...or you come home and find a loved one shot 50 times. Which is worse?

I'm not saying the pain for the loss of a loved one might not be greater. I'm saying that when someone faces off with many cops, and the cops find it necessary to fire, that person may be hit with a lot of bullets. That alone is no evidence of police wrongdoing, however hurtful it is to relatives or to the community.

LMAO at people defending subversion of the Constitution, and methhead trailer trash SWAT guys.

johno wrote:I'm saying that when someone faces off with many cops, and the cops find it necessary to fire, that person may be hit with a lot of bullets. That alone is no evidence of police wrongdoing, however hurtful it is to relatives or to the community.

"Necessary to fire" depends on the facts. And, theoretically, cops are experts in determining how much force is "necessary" in a domestic, criminal situation and then applying it safely and effectively.

Multiple cops unloading clip after clip into a home occupied by a 4 year old child and a women accused of nothing is not "alone" evidence of police wrongdoing as you say, but it sure suggests it.

To me, it suggests you've got cowboys wearing badges rather than a disciplined, intelligent police force.

Darf,

I can think of a couple real bad subversions of the constitution, 4th amendment ones I think are among the most egregious. Given your penchant for vigilant home protection, I suspect a no knock warrant accidentally served on your house while you slept could easily end in a similar fashion. Every civilized society relies on professional policing. This is an example of every more unprofessional soldiering, masquerading as the justice system. It's not an isolated incident and it's not acceptable. It's no longer just the ACLU and liberal hand wringers paying attention.

oh and...your jabs at jezzy fall ever flatter and more hollow. jus sayin.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Darf,

I can think of a couple real bad subversions of the constitution, 4th amendment ones I think are among the most egregious. Given your penchant for vigilant home protection, I suspect a no knock warrant accidentally served on your house while you slept could easily end in a similar fashion. Every civilized society relies on professional policing. This is an example of every more unprofessional soldiering, masquerading as the justice system. It's not an isolated incident and it's not acceptable. It's no longer just the ACLU and liberal hand wringers paying attention.

Much truth. We need the police to act as a paramilitary organization only in extreme circumstances. I'm not sure exactly when that is, but I do know it's not when a Maryland mayor has some weed and the cops shoot his Labrador retrievers or when some guy's wife is a college loan deadbeat.

Unfortunately, people love the big boy toys and they need to be used to keep the funding coming in. As Fat Cat quoted the Bible in a different thread, "The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil." That aphorism applies to much more than 1%ers.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Darf,
This is an example of every more unprofessional soldiering, masquerading as the justice system.

This 1,000 times over. The police force is not the military. It wants desperately so to be, and that's half the problem.

Kalifornia home invasion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wypFgcqHyvc

Jezebel Jones wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Darf,
This is an example of every more unprofessional soldiering, masquerading as the justice system.

This 1,000 times over. The police force is not the military. It wants desperately so to be, and that's half the problem.

That we might agree on. Over the last 20 years too many cops are jacked up to put on their G.I. Joe Action Gear and play Delta Force.

Look this case is clearly fucked up, I am not defending that but I am not going to let emotion make me make a statement that I will regret. IMO No knocks are abused and should be ALOT harder for the cops to obtain. If the cops raid the wrong house (and they do that shit all the time!) then that department should have to pay $100,000 to the head of household in those situations and individual cops who do stupid shit should face prosecution. But I would not do away with them entirely as they have helped put alot of dangerous peices of shit away.

The Constitutionality of No Knocks has been challenged many time in court, so far they stand. Again we elect Judges on many levels and the ones who are appointed are so by people we elect.

If this is the most important thi ing to you get active and work to change it. This is not issue #1 for me. The subversion of the 2nd Amendment are way more glairing and are aimed strait at law abiding citizens, a bunch of trying to prevent a crime that might go down. No Knocks are aimed at known and suspected criminals but get subverted and from time to time the truely innocent get affected.

If you want to live where you don't live in condition 1, ready for combat all the time you will have lot's of laws, many of wich get subverted, there in is one of the things citizens have to be up on and active about. It's why there once was a real ACLU before it became the fuck Conservatives and Christians Inc.
Hey I, Bats, TOM and Johno and a few others on IG could live in a Nation with very few to no laws, where you will have to carry weapons constantly and defend your home, not might. As the song says we can skin a Buck and run a trout line and a whole lot less friendly skills as well, Shit we might even thrive in such a place but it probably would get old real quick. I doubt most here could or would want to live like that. Especially those who live in cities, by there very nature cities require more control over people. (Why I will not live in one, the burbs are bad enough with that.)

As long as you have alot of people living in the same place you will have laws, people to enforce them and bad shit will come with the good. It's not easy and opinions very widely.

Be informed, get involved, get in politicians faces, write to the newspapers, start a blog and vote. If more of us were informed and involved we would be alot better off and the politicians and authorities would have to obey us alot more.Not a perfect system but I'll take it over any other that's come along so far. If it collapses then I for one will fight for a better one built on the foundations of the current one.

protobuilder wrote:"Necessary to fire" depends on the facts. And, theoretically, cops are experts in determining how much force is "necessary" in a domestic, criminal situation and then applying it safely and effectively.

Cops are not "experts" in this area. I remember attending a class taught by a former police officer, who also was in charge of training other officers. He said when it came to shooting that officers are taught the three F's: Fire till the Fucker Falls. In other words once firing starts the person is still standing he is still considered a threat and you continue to treat them as such.

I can tell you that if I ever have to fire in self defense I will continue to fire as long as I see that person as a threat.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:Oh snap
http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/11/03/41176.htm

Oh snap again:
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/f ... 902b8.html

Cliff's Notes: Initial story is police serve a no-knock warrant on a Marine with no criminal record. He is shot to death holding a rifle. Family suggests SWAT had the wrong house. Jose had reason to get his gun because he knew people had been killed in a home invasion. SWAT claimed they thought they were being fired at, evidence showed rifle wasn't fired and was still on safe.

Video now indicates this was not a no-knock warrant. They knocked (though they only knocked for about 7 seconds). His brothers and in-laws been indicted on charges of smuggling $4.9M in marijuana. Jose owned 6 vehicles worth $100k+ without the income to purchase, with his brothers and uncles having similar numbers. Cars are common money-laundering tools for drug dealers. One of his was seen at a drug house his brother owned where 1,300 pounds of marijuana was found.

Again, if you don't want to get shot, it definitely pays to be white.

I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

Pinky wrote:I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

If they're not white, apparently it is according to Spells.

Who knew that IGx would be one of the last bastions of support for assorted spooks, spics, and toothless meth addled hillbillies who've been arrested, assaulted, murdered, and dog murdered by out of control popo?

Pinky wrote:I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

Fun editing there. Pink, they found over half a ton of weed executing the warrant. $100K in vehicles registered in his name. A dozen cell phones in his house. Esse was dirty.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

Pinky wrote:I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

Fun editing there. Pink, they found over half a ton of weed executing the warrant. $100K in vehicles registered in his name. A dozen cell phones in his house. Esse was dirty.

Good thing they shot him to death in his home with his wife and child nearby. Better safe than sorry. Who needs a judge?

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

Pinky wrote:I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

Fun editing there.

Here's the full list of charges from the article:

The group is charged with illegally conducting a criminal enterprise, conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana for sale, conspiracy to commit money laundering and money laundering.

While I certainly edited for comedic effect ("conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana" is the funniest thing I've read in ages), none of the charges indicate that this man posed any kind of threat that would justify busting his door in with guns blazing. Or forbidding medics to attend to him.

Pink, they found over half a ton of weed executing the warrant. $100K in vehicles registered in his name. A dozen cell phones in his house.

A half ton of weed? They should have called Jack Bauer and started the clock running. Lives were at stake.

The other charges are basically white-collar offenses, and not particularly odious ones. The idea that these charges justify any use of a SWAT team is absurd.

Esse was dirty.

That's racist.

I was going to make a point, but Pinky did it better.

Pinky wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

Pinky wrote:I guess it's OK to shoot people whose families are accused of "conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana".

Fun editing there.

Here's the full list of charges from the article:

The group is charged with illegally conducting a criminal enterprise, conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana for sale, conspiracy to commit money laundering and money laundering.

While I certainly edited for comedic effect ("conspiracy to commit possession of marijuana" is the funniest thing I've read in ages), none of the charges indicate that this man posed any kind of threat that would justify busting his door in with guns blazing. Or forbidding medics to attend to him.

The fact that he was involved in a drug trafficking operation justified send SWAT. When he responded to the raid by grabbing a gun he got shot. The "innocent homeowner who gets his gun in confusion" narrative is gone.

The other charges are basically white-collar offenses, and not particularly odious ones. The idea that these charges justify any use of a SWAT team is absurd.

You are clinging to an opinion when the facts have completely changed. LOL @ you.

100k in vehicles (including a relatively new truck) on a 40k income? Not uncommon in most areas around the country.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:The fact that he was involved in a drug trafficking operation justified send SWAT.

He was allegedly involved voluntary, private transactions that the government doesn't approve of. He was not alleged to be holding hostages, threatening to blow anything up, or otherwise putting anyone in danger.

Those are not opinions. Those are the facts as given by your "oh, snap!" news stories.

The idea that police ought to use military-style assaults against citizens accused of non-violent, victimless crimes should sicken anyone who places any value on civil liberties.

The other charges are basically white-collar offenses, and not particularly odious ones. The idea that these charges justify any use of a SWAT team is absurd.

You are clinging to an opinion when the facts have completely changed. LOL @ you.

Which one of those opinions is contradicted by your links?