http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... blair-iraqWhy I had no choice but to spurn Tony Blair
Desmond Tutu
The immorality of the United States and Great Britain's decision to invade Iraq in 2003, premised on the lie that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction, has destabilised and polarised the world to a greater extent than any other conflict in history.
Instead of recognising that the world we lived in, with increasingly sophisticated communications, transportations and weapons systems necessitated sophisticated leadership that would bring the global family together, the then-leaders of the US and UK fabricated the grounds to behave like playground bullies and drive us further apart. They have driven us to the edge of a precipice where we now stand – with the spectre of Syria and Iran before us.
If leaders may lie, then who should tell the truth? Days before George W Bush and Tony Blair ordered the invasion of Iraq, I called the White House and spoke to Condoleezza Rice, who was then national security adviser, to urge that United Nations weapons inspectors be given more time to confirm or deny the existence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Should they be able to confirm finding such weapons, I argued, dismantling the threat would have the support of virtually the entire world. Ms Rice demurred, saying there was too much risk and the president would not postpone any longer.
On what grounds do we decide that Robert Mugabe should go the International Criminal Court, Tony Blair should join the international speakers' circuit, bin Laden should be assassinated, but Iraq should be invaded, not because it possesses weapons of mass destruction, as Mr Bush's chief supporter, Mr Blair, confessed last week, but in order to get rid of Saddam Hussein?
The cost of the decision to rid Iraq of its by-all-accounts despotic and murderous leader has been staggering, beginning in Iraq itself. Last year, an average of 6.5 people died there each day in suicide attacks and vehicle bombs, according to the Iraqi Body Count project. More than 110,000 Iraqis have died in the conflict since 2003 and millions have been displaced. By the end of last year, nearly 4,500 American soldiers had been killed and more than 32,000 wounded.
On these grounds alone, in a consistent world, those responsible for this suffering and loss of life should be treading the same path as some of their African and Asian peers who have been made to answer for their actions in the Hague.
But even greater costs have been exacted beyond the killing fields, in the hardened hearts and minds of members of the human family across the world.
Has the potential for terrorist attacks decreased? To what extent have we succeeded in bringing the so-called Muslim and Judeo-Christian worlds closer together, in sowing the seeds of understanding and hope?
Leadership and morality are indivisible. Good leaders are the custodians of morality. The question is not whether Saddam Hussein was good or bad or how many of his people he massacred. The point is that Mr Bush and Mr Blair should not have allowed themselves to stoop to his immoral level.
If it is acceptable for leaders to take drastic action on the basis of a lie, without an acknowledgement or an apology when they are found out, what should we teach our children?
My appeal to Mr Blair is not to talk about leadership, but to demonstrate it. You are a member of our family, God's family. You are made for goodness, for honesty, for morality, for love; so are our brothers and sisters in Iraq, in the US, in Syria, in Israel and Iran.
I did not deem it appropriate to have this discussion at the Discovery Invest Leadership Summit in Johannesburg last week. As the date drew nearer, I felt an increasingly profound sense of discomfort about attending a summit on "leadership" with Mr Blair. I extend my humblest and sincerest apologies to Discovery, the summit organisers, the speakers and delegates for the lateness of my decision not to attend.
Coming soon to....the Hague
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Topic author - Sergeant Commanding
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Coming soon to....the Hague
Doesn't sound like he supports the troops.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
He didn't have the same attitude when it was his people being oppressed.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
This much is true, G.W. Bush and Tony Blair are both definitely evil and will end up in hell. They fabricated a war and caused the deaths of thousands without good cause.

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
FC. If you had been in GW's place, what would you have done?
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
In hind site, yeah. More independent media, instead of state fun tools helps,nowadays, but the machinery of death and corruption marches on. Dub effectiveness was on the same level as obammys
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
When did we invade Apartheid-era South Africa?Turdacious wrote:He didn't have the same attitude when it was his people being oppressed.
Eased the Clinton-era sanctions over a period of time, spent the Iraq billions on American infrastructure.Andy78 wrote:FC. If you had been in GW's place, what would you have done?
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
You're missing the point. Tutu didn't have the same attitute when he was being oppressed by a far milder regime than the others he mentions. And his suggestion that Mugabe and Blair are moral equivalents is disgusting.milosz wrote:When did we invade Apartheid-era South Africa?Turdacious wrote:He didn't have the same attitude when it was his people being oppressed.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Crazies gonna crazy!
I stopped reading.The . . . decision to invade Iraq in 2003 . . . has destabilised and polarised the world to a greater extent than any other conflict in history
"Know that! & Know it deep you fucking loser!"


Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
What is "the same attitude"? Tutu was a South African advocating for internal change - Iraqis, as might be evident now, were not exactly clamoring for an occupation by the people who'd bombed them into the stone age and then enforced draconian sanctions that only made their lives more miserable.
"Far milder regime" is a beautifully weaselly way of justifying the Apartheid regime - which was not, of course, particularly mild.
As to Blair and Mugabe, I'm not sure Blair isn't responsible for more innocent deaths than Mugabe - but that's splitting hairs, as in a just world they should probably both take a bullet to the back of the head.
"Far milder regime" is a beautifully weaselly way of justifying the Apartheid regime - which was not, of course, particularly mild.
As to Blair and Mugabe, I'm not sure Blair isn't responsible for more innocent deaths than Mugabe - but that's splitting hairs, as in a just world they should probably both take a bullet to the back of the head.
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Your entire post is nonsensical.milosz wrote:What is "the same attitude"? Tutu was a South African advocating for internal change - Iraqis, as might be evident now, were not exactly clamoring for an occupation by the people who'd bombed them into the stone age and then enforced draconian sanctions that only made their lives more miserable.
"Far milder regime" is a beautifully weaselly way of justifying the Apartheid regime - which was not, of course, particularly mild.
As to Blair and Mugabe, I'm not sure Blair isn't responsible for more innocent deaths than Mugabe - but that's splitting hairs, as in a just world they should probably both take a bullet to the back of the head.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Same.protobuilder wrote:Crazies gonna crazy!
I stopped reading.The . . . decision to invade Iraq in 2003 . . . has destabilised and polarised the world to a greater extent than any other conflict in history
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Yeah, that's the retort - any decent editor would have cut that out.protobuilder wrote:Crazies gonna crazy!
I stopped reading.The . . . decision to invade Iraq in 2003 . . . has destabilised and polarised the world to a greater extent than any other conflict in history
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
While the statement in question is dubious, the basic message that Bush and Blair stooped to the level of immorality is accurate and they should be held accountable. Not by international tribunal but by the people of the USA and the UK.

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Which level of immorality? Which laws did they break? Going into a country to liberate its people, whether based on a false premise or a real one, has long precedent in both countries. As I understand it, it is not illegal under the existing laws of either country.Fat Cat wrote:While the statement in question is dubious, the basic message that Bush and Blair stooped to the level of immorality is accurate and they should be held accountable. Not by international tribunal but by the people of the USA and the UK.
And as an aside, Tutu should know better. Tutu's oppression-- being merely imprisoned-- hardly rises to being tortured or having his family killed for his actions. His fate would have been different in many other countries. His moral equivalizing is Carteresque.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Oh the irony of Turd critiquing Tutu over miscalculated moral equivalency.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Understandable coming from you-- you hate policing actions of all kinds.Blaidd Drwg wrote:Oh the irony of Turd critiquing Tutu over miscalculated moral equivalency.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Turdacious wrote:Understandable coming from you-- you hate policing actions of all kinds.Blaidd Drwg wrote:Oh the irony of Turd critiquing Tutu over miscalculated moral equivalency.
Ha. Police Action. Snerk.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Guys like Saddam *need* everyone else to be like Desmond Tutu, otherwise they wouldn't be able to gas their own people with nerve agents.
Don’t believe everything you think.
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
They also need people to sell them nerve agents...
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Take it back - Obama is a Nobel Peace Prize holder, in case you don't know. I am pretty sure that he promised to close Gitmo and pull out of most of the Middle East. Panetta and Clinton haven't even told him about the drone attacks but, when they do, he's going to be be pissed.Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Dub effectiveness was on the same level as obammys
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
By your estimation Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton were all "like Desmond Tutu".nafod wrote:Guys like Saddam *need* everyone else to be like Desmond Tutu, otherwise they wouldn't be able to gas their own people with nerve agents.
PS Which country are we going to invade today?

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Eh? All three presidents took offensive military action against sovereign nations.Fat Cat wrote:By your estimation Reagan, Bush Sr., and Clinton were all "like Desmond Tutu".nafod wrote:Guys like Saddam *need* everyone else to be like Desmond Tutu, otherwise they wouldn't be able to gas their own people with nerve agents.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Shut the fuck up dunce, not one of them did anything about Saddam ruling Iraq.

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
I do enjoy these stimulating conversations.Fat Cat wrote:Shut the fuck up dunce, not one of them did anything about Saddam ruling Iraq.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
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Re: Coming soon to....the Hague
Neither Syria nor North Korea have enough oil and the latter has nuclear weapons so I believe we're good for the moment.Fat Cat wrote:PS Which country are we going to invade today?
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.