IGX

Nobody really knows how good Tyson was at his prime-- the HW division wasn't exactly stacked then.

Turdacious wrote:Nobody really knows how good Tyson was at his prime-- the HW division wasn't exactly stacked then.

True, and he spent his best years in prison. Tyson the story is more interesting than Tyson the fighter in many ways. I think Baff's take is the one that resonates, he's like a child but at the same time, (aside form the lisp and little voice) pretty articulate about who/where he was.

baffled wrote: Agreed. I was picking on Jay's assertion of being the #1 HW ever.

The One And Only Sugar Ray Robinson
Ali
Greb
Pep
Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Maybe Benny Leonard
Henry Armstrong
Could throw in guys like Ray Leonard and/or Duran
Salvador Sanchez is usually an honorable mention since he may have been the best FW ever, even though he died at like 23
I don't know why, but you sometimes see Marciano and Lamotta on these lists.

I've always like the Baffled Breakdown..

FTR, no way do I think Tyson had the chops to be 10 ten, PFP of all time, But he did have the physical gifts to flirt with top ten-fifteen HW IMO but, sadly did not have the everything else needed to put it together in the ring like a Dempsey or an Johnson..

Say what you want, but in my lifetime I can never remember any other athlete in any sport that carried the aura of sheer invincibility that Tyson did.
I can still remember watching the Douglas fight and getting the feeling that the world kind of shifted when he actually lost.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

baffled wrote: Agreed. I was picking on Jay's assertion of being the #1 HW ever.

The One And Only Sugar Ray Robinson
Ali
Greb
Pep
Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Maybe Benny Leonard
Henry Armstrong
Could throw in guys like Ray Leonard and/or Duran
Salvador Sanchez is usually an honorable mention since he may have been the best FW ever, even though he died at like 23
I don't know why, but you sometimes see Marciano and Lamotta on these lists.

I've always like the Baffled Breakdown..

FTR, no way do I think Tyson had the chops to be 10 ten, PFP of all time, But he did have the physical gifts to flirt with top ten-fifteen HW IMO but, sadly had the everything else needed to put it together in the ring like a Dempsey or an Johnson..

If we're talking Breakdown like losing my shit, I have no beef. Boxing threads seem to send me into a fit.

If we're talking breakdown like boxing talk, thanks. Either way, I'm good.

We're very much on the same page when it comes to Tyson.

The one thing I don't think anyone else has noted is that the HW division of the Tyson Era was weak as piss. He was a physical marvel, but with the exception of Spinks, his best wins were guys like a chinless Frank Bruno or a completely over the hill-shouldn't have been fighting- Larry Holmes (kind of a rite of passage for any up and coming fighter though), and I'm sure someone else I'm forgetting.

The difference between Tyson and Holmes was that Holmes defended his title 20 freaking times. Tyson wasn't even the lineal champ until he beat Spinks, then lost the lineage after two defenses to Buster freaking Douglas.

We agree...I meant you're sumuppance of the PFP list is a good breakdown. I always enjoy the analysis.

Though my point with the whole thread was less about the talent of Tyson and more the Character Tyson. He's a guy that woudl be worth sitting down and talking to, like Hagler or Frazier. Maybe not the Da Greatest Evah PFP but fascinating products of their time and place.

msr2112 wrote:Say what you want, but in my lifetime I can never remember any other athlete in any sport that carried the aura of sheer invincibility that Tyson did.

Tyson was not immune to kryptonite.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:We agree...I meant you're sumuppance of the PFP list is a good breakdown. I always enjoy the analysis.

Though my point with the whole thread was less about the talent of Tyson and more the Character Tyson. He's a guy that woudl be worth sitting down and talking to, like Hagler or Frazier. Maybe not the Da Greatest Evah PFP but fascinating products of their time and place.

The fighters I would have loved to hang out with, dead or alive, to talk boxing or whatever would have been Frazier, Hagler, Basilio, Ward, Gatti (elected to HOF today, BTW), Schmeling and definitely Tyson.

Jack Johnson too, just to hear stories of being a black champion who liked white prostitutes during that time.

He was one of the greats but he was not the best ever. Hollyfield in his prime was better than Tyson and was the answer to Tyson's style, it's just they did not fight when they were each prime so we never got to see it. ( Because Mike had what Arron MacGruder calls "A nigger moment." When he did fight Evander Mike couldnt handle his shit and had to resort to biting. (and shows how much tougher Hollyfield was compared to that thug asshole. Just stepped back and looked at him. They should have kept that bitch going with the reff saying to Hollyfield "They next round I dont see a fucking thing you do!" Let Evander rabbit punch that fucker a few time.)

Ali in his prime would have frustrated him and then put him out.

But he was still one of the greatest and he was a powerhouse for a brief time.

It's funny all the Dempsy talk though. Tyson fought more like Marciano. A body shot monster who did not really rely on a jab as much as most fighters. Allmost everything Tyson threw were power punches that were ment to damage shit.

I do agree IF he did not give into his low IQ, primitive side he could have been the greatest.

Mike's life a is a series of such "moments" ...and...Holyfield was a headbutting muthrfucker.

I think the Dempsey comparison comes from his relentless head movement and defense.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Mike's life a is a series of such "moments" ...and...Holyfield was a headbutting muthrfucker. And Tyson was'nt? He slammed and grinded his head and elbows into alot of folks. (Not that I think that's a bad thing. Part of the skill of sportive fighting is doing dirty shit without getting called for it.)

I think the Dempsey comparison comes from his relentless head movement and defense.

I can see that, but he was soooo Marciano. It's what I liked best about him,no flippy jab shit just hammer, hammer, hammer and fall.

Oh I agree. Tyson had nasty elbows, Evander just had the height to bring the forehead down hard. I think Evander studied Tyson and knew that he'd have to keep him at a distance and when Tyson was inside, fight him old school

Tyson reminded me more of Frazier, but Marciano's a good comparison too.

I still don't think he could have been the greatest, even had he not gone off the deep end. I think the era he fought in would have held him back. And by the time Lennox Lewis came along, he would have waxed Tyson at any age, IMO. Just too damn big.

His ability is romanticized because he was so dominant against mostly chumps and he was fucking mean.

People forget that Tyson was (puffed stats aside) a dude of average height, (5'10") with good reach. Lewis, Foreman and either Klitschko are just too huge anymore. The small HW is a throwback.

Agreed. Even the smaller guys of today, pretty much everyone not named Klitschko, Price, Fury or Helenius, are still like 6'3" or 6'4".

I think Tyson would have been competitive in almost any era because of the speed and power, but in today's oversized HW division, I don't think he makes it past contender status. Too short.

baffled wrote:Agreed. Even the smaller guys of today, pretty much everyone not named Klitschko, Price, Fury or Helenius, are still like 6'3" or 6'4".

I think Tyson would have been competitive in almost any era because of the speed and power, but in today's oversized HW division, I don't think he makes it past contender status. Too short.

Tyson in his prime used his shortness compared to others very well. He'd get inside like the Viet Cong and fuck up shop.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Oh I agree. Tyson had nasty elbows, Evander just had the height to bring the forehead down hard. I think Evander studied Tyson and knew that he'd have to keep him at a distance and when Tyson was inside, fight him old school

My late unlce was a huge fight fan and he always felt Evander had the answer to Mike IF he could keep Mike on the outside and fartest infighting range. Infighting and in the clinch was not a good place to have Tyson on you. A great way to ge the 1-2 shovel hooks to the body and Mikes hook of death to the head.

DARTH wrote:

baffled wrote:Agreed. Even the smaller guys of today, pretty much everyone not named Klitschko, Price, Fury or Helenius, are still like 6'3" or 6'4".

I think Tyson would have been competitive in almost any era because of the speed and power, but in today's oversized HW division, I don't think he makes it past contender status. Too short.

Tyson in his prime used his shortness compared to others very well. He'd get inside like the Viet Cong and fuck up shop.

If he was maybe 6'1", I would give that to you, but he wasn't. He was small for a super middleweight, let alone a heavyweight. Today's fighters would have just tied him up and held his head down like Lewis did to Holyfield, IIRC.

I think he would have lost to today's best fighters in fights that would have stunk out loud.

DARTH wrote:

baffled wrote:Agreed. Even the smaller guys of today, pretty much everyone not named Klitschko, Price, Fury or Helenius, are still like 6'3" or 6'4".

I think Tyson would have been competitive in almost any era because of the speed and power, but in today's oversized HW division, I don't think he makes it past contender status. Too short.

Tyson in his prime used his shortness compared to others very well. He'd get inside like the Viet Cong and fuck up shop.

This. Tyson of old would have gotten inside on either Klitschko and chopped them down like fucking xmas trees. No hwt could match his speed.

how did he have such ease slipping and ducking punches? that shit's hard. if I bend at the waist, I sure as shit can't move arond and come back up so easily and I took a year of kenpo when i was 16

protobuilder wrote:how did he have such ease slipping and ducking punches? that shit's hard. if I bend at the waist, I sure as shit can't move arond and come back up so easily and I took a year of kenpo when i was 16

never seen a black man dodge a days work? they natural at it.

Sandman wrote:

DARTH wrote:

baffled wrote:Agreed. Even the smaller guys of today, pretty much everyone not named Klitschko, Price, Fury or Helenius, are still like 6'3" or 6'4".

I think Tyson would have been competitive in almost any era because of the speed and power, but in today's oversized HW division, I don't think he makes it past contender status. Too short.

Tyson in his prime used his shortness compared to others very well. He'd get inside like the Viet Cong and fuck up shop.

This. Tyson of old would have gotten inside on either Klitschko and chopped them down like fucking xmas trees. No hwt could match his speed.

I cannot express how much I disagree with this sentiment. His best bet against either Klitschko would have been a hail mary punch.

Runt is having a fuckin conniption right now.

Like Tyson's mental health, I thought this thread might go off the rails....

Don't bring that shit up in here.