Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

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Blaidd Drwg
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Ah yes. I grok
To me, here's the key question-- from a local perspective, is the value of an aggressive PD as a revenue generating agency more important than treating poor people (who often happen to be black) fairly? My guess is it's the former. I'm guessing that this as true in fiscally challenged cities ranging from Philly to Ferguson.

I back that bet in a second.In affluent cities with relatively consolidated low crime like Seattle, the revenue generating end of Policing is hugely important to overall budget. It plays out rather soft here even as SPD has been nationally recognized (by the FBI..:) ) as prone to excesses of violence. My take on the revenue end is it only rarely has anything to race and is more income based. I could see in a City like Ferguson or Detroit, line staff bear a much larger brunt of this inherent conflict in revenue generation vs. public service/ enforcing the law...

My solution..always tends towards minimalism...Quit enforcing stupid laws as a start.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Batboy2/75 »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Ah yes. I grok
To me, here's the key question-- from a local perspective, is the value of an aggressive PD as a revenue generating agency more important than treating poor people (who often happen to be black) fairly? My guess is it's the former. I'm guessing that this as true in fiscally challenged cities ranging from Philly to Ferguson.

I back that bet in a second.In affluent cities with relatively consolidated low crime like Seattle, the revenue generating end of Policing is hugely important to overall budget. It plays out rather soft here even as SPD has been nationally recognized (by the FBI..:) ) as prone to excesses of violence. My take on the revenue end is it only rarely has anything to race and is more income based. I could see in a City like Ferguson or Detroit, line staff bear a much larger brunt of this inherent conflict in revenue generation vs. public service/ enforcing the law...

My solution..always tends towards minimalism...Quit enforcing stupid laws as a start.
Eliminate the laws all together. Laws on the books will eventually get enforced by some asshat. Ignoring them is Government doing us a favor. As if they "The lords on High" are doing us a favor. Government at all levels could do with seeing their wings clipped by the people. They need to be reminded who truly holds the reigns of power. In short they need to be humiliated.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Batboy2/75 »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
Pinky wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:IME, and this is going back 20 years mind you, but the summonses (tickets, whatever they call it in your area) in the ghetto were bullshit numbers anyways. Meaning, they rarely paid them
That's why Ferguson charged late fees that quickly exceeded the original fines, and routinely held people hostage until someone paid at least part of their bill. You were working for an actual police department, not a government-sanctioned gang of highway robbers.
Yeah, that's an unbelievable waste of time and no cop wants to do that bullshit anyway, except I guess State Troopers since that's most of their day. The only reason I did not hate writing summons to the Mamadu's was because I knew they'd never pay. I still suspect the math on that does not jive once you peel back the onion a bit in the F-town example. Also, as you state, that is gov't directed and is not a policing problem.
This is what people forget when they agree to laws being passed or they demand their representatives enact laws. Don't enact laws you are not willing to see people killed over. Because at the end of the day, the police will end up enforcing those laws.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

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Laws that raise revenue from people that nobody really cares about (i.e. poor people) are laws that people want, because people want lower taxes. Laws that don't (like busting people for selling loosies) are a different matter.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

I agree about getting rid of bullshit laws, but feel I talk out of both sides of my mouth when it comes to which laws, and how to enforce or ignore accordingly in the interim. My sarcastic remark about the jigs eating chicken wings and fried rice while drinking a 40 and smoking a spliff on someone's parked car on the street was a real and not at all uncommon thing back in the day. Shit, as a kid I sat on more than enough parked cars, too.

We can do away with many drug laws and America would be a better place (not to mention all but cure most of our prison over population problems). However, as an example, do away with the simple Violation of "Disorderly Conduct" aka NYS Penal Law 240.20 aka the ultimate catch-all and every state has its own....I'm not so sure anyone would want the unintended consequences of that....most definitely not in heavily populated, urban areas.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

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The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I agree about getting rid of bullshit laws, but feel I talk out of both sides of my mouth when it comes to which laws, and how to enforce or ignore accordingly in the interim. My sarcastic remark about the jigs eating chicken wings and fried rice while drinking a 40 and smoking a spliff on someone's parked car on the street was a real and not at all uncommon thing back in the day. Shit, as a kid I sat on more than enough parked cars, too.

We can do away with many drug laws and America would be a better place (not to mention all but cure most of our prison over population problems). However, as an example, do away with the simple Violation of "Disorderly Conduct" aka NYS Penal Law 240.20 aka the ultimate catch-all and every state has its own....I'm not so sure anyone would want the unintended consequences of that....most definitely not in heavily populated, urban areas.
Some of the most egregious laws are those that try to ban or control something (a majority or large minority of people want) out of existence. At one time, no drugs were regulated and the USA didn't fall apart. To the contrary, the period just before we started regulating the shit of stuff people wanted, was referred to as the "The Gilded Age". There was shit loads of Alcohol, opium and cocaine and the USA kicked ass.

Next up are the laws passed that do zero to solve what they were passed to solve, but make some hand wringing fascists feel good. Followed by laws and programs that simply duplicate other laws and programs. Many conservatives oppose the expansion of the welfare state, not just on philosophical grounds, but because it is readily apparent that very few on the left are concerned about results, simplicity, budgets and or getting anyone off of welfare or government program. The left always waxes on about how they want to do what they do in Germany etc., As if some stone cold Teutonic bureaucrat was writing and administering the program. Nor do they ask if those programs ever work. Instead it's always some half assed rip off program constructed so poorly it makes Tammany Hall look like a bunch of classical Confucian administrators.

As for fines; I'm all for fining people and you could handle a lot of things by simply fining people and keeping the LEO out of it. However, Setting up the system so that simple fines grow at an expediential rates and then get sold off to bill collectors is wrong.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Ginger Beard Man »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Ah yes. I grok
To me, here's the key question-- from a local perspective, is the value of an aggressive PD as a revenue generating agency more important than treating poor people (who often happen to be black) fairly? My guess is it's the former. I'm guessing that this as true in fiscally challenged cities ranging from Philly to Ferguson.

I back that bet in a second.In affluent cities with relatively consolidated low crime like Seattle, the revenue generating end of Policing is hugely important to overall budget. It plays out rather soft here even as SPD has been nationally recognized (by the FBI..:) ) as prone to excesses of violence. My take on the revenue end is it only rarely has anything to race and is more income based. I could see in a City like Ferguson or Detroit, line staff bear a much larger brunt of this inherent conflict in revenue generation vs. public service/ enforcing the law...

My solution..always tends towards minimalism...Quit enforcing stupid laws as a start.
It's like you guys weren't paying attention to recent events in NY, you know, that "Wings on pigs" nut, the cops protesting the mayor at funerals, and then the slow down. "Don't make unnecessary arrests" became a controversial statement for all the wrong reasons.
NYC is like every other municipality in America. The NYPD are backdoor tax collectors just like the FPD. It's exactly what the people want.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Pinky »

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
"The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all."

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

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Blaidd Drwg wrote: My solution..always tends towards minimalism...Quit enforcing stupid laws as a start.

I'd guess 95% of IGx'ers would agree. (But disagree on which laws were stupid.)

BUT some Americans have a strong urge to Nanny and the legal system reflects that. It's an American tradition, balanced by Daniel Boone's "don't fuck with me, I'm leaving for Texas" frontier libertarian attitude.

It's an eternal battle. When we colonize the moon, some fuckwit will demand a Smoking Ban.

******

Along with the Nanny urge, there are those who insist on Taking a Good Thing Too Far. Ex. - MADD, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, who have taken the drunk driving level down to 0.08%, and are pushing for lower. And for "Sobriety Checkpoints" in more states.
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Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

johno wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote: My solution..always tends towards minimalism...Quit enforcing stupid laws as a start.

I'd guess 95% of IGx'ers would agree. (But disagree on which laws were stupid.)
Ain't that the truth. 'Discon' that Violation I listed the other day on this thread is *the* catch-all law that most people would see as a tool of abuse for harassment. And, there might be a little juice behind that assertion, although far less fluid ounces then apologist lefties would have us believe. But, and it's a really big "BUT", you do away with a law like that and you blow the doors wide open for a lot of piss poor conduct, not to mention the unintended consequence of escalation of force over nonsense. Even using the Eric Garner 'loosie' scenario, which I think everyone would say is a bullshit law for cops to enforce is irrelevant in that scenario as the (non-white/minority) shopkeeper would have called 911 on him even if he weren't selling loosies, but just chillin out, maxin', relaxin' all cool and bumming Doritos from paying customers as they left the store.


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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

This is "Discon" in NY State. Would anyone argue this law should be erased?

Penal

§ 240.20 Disorderly conduct.
A person is guilty of disorderly conduct when, with intent to cause
public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk
thereof:
1. He engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous or threatening
behavior; or
2. He makes unreasonable noise; or
3. In a public place, he uses abusive or obscene language, or makes an
obscene gesture; or
4. Without lawful authority, he disturbs any lawful assembly or
meeting of persons; or
5. He obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or
6. He congregates with other persons in a public place and refuses to
comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse; or
7. He creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act
which serves no legitimate purpose.
Disorderly conduct is a violation.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:This is "Discon" in NY State. Would anyone argue this law should be erased?

Penal

§ 240.20 Disorderly conduct.
A person is guilty of disorderly conduct when, with intent to cause
public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk
thereof:
1. He engages in fighting or in violent, tumultuous or threatening
behavior; or
2. He makes unreasonable noise; or
3. In a public place, he uses abusive or obscene language, or makes an
obscene gesture; or
4. Without lawful authority, he disturbs any lawful assembly or
meeting of persons; or
5. He obstructs vehicular or pedestrian traffic; or
6. He congregates with other persons in a public place and refuses to
comply with a lawful order of the police to disperse; or
7. He creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act
which serves no legitimate purpose.
Disorderly conduct is a violation.
Should be renamed the Anti-TNB Law.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

Double post in honor of Garner and Brown.


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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Protobuilder »

Happy Mike Brown Day!

Let's celebrate by having 4.5 minutes of silence then shooting at police and looting liquor stores.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

Protobuilder wrote:Happy Mike Brown Day!

Let's celebrate by having 4.5 minutes of silence then shooting at police and looting liquor stores.
Be fair. Reporting seemed to indicate they shot at one another first and then shot at police. I can only assume they were mad at the cops for not defending them from themselves.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by nafod »

They need some community leadership.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Ginger Beard Man »

nafod wrote:They need some community leadership.
It's a shame Mike Brown died so young. Another promising life snuffed out.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by johno »

"Hands Up, Don't Shoot" has taken root. Even though it is a lie.


The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats


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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

johno wrote:"Hands Up, Don't Shoot" has taken root. Even though it is a lie.


The jigs might have created the chant, but again, stupid fucking white people are responsible for this.....way to go, hand wringing media douchebag assholes.

My disdain for lame, white libs is reaching an alltime high.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Grandpa's Spells »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
johno wrote:"Hands Up, Don't Shoot" has taken root. Even though it is a lie.


The jigs might have created the chant, but again, stupid fucking white people are responsible for this.....way to go, hand wringing media douchebag assholes.

My disdain for lame, white libs is reaching an alltime high.
SRS question. While the evidence supported the theory that Brown was attacking the officer when first shot, there are at least four videos I know of that show unarmed black men/kids getting shot by cops while doing either nothing illegal or nothing that warranted getting shot. And while the very specific example of "Hands Up" slogan has a dubious origin, it's being corrected on NPR, a pretty reliable news source for hand-wringing liberals.

Given that, I don't get where derision over one corrected, inconsequential detail comes from. And while I haven't heard you say this, even the much more valid "Black Lives Matter" slogan has been attacked as well.

I sometimes get the sense that people look at the one sketchy tree and ignore the forest, which shows a pattern of black people getting shot by police unjustifiably. And maybe they're looking really hard for the sketchy trees so as to ignore the forest.

But I may be completely misrepresenting the position here of people pissed off at people in Ferguson who, on the whole, have a completely legitimate list of complaints when it comes to police treatment.

Why so aggravated?
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
johno wrote:"Hands Up, Don't Shoot" has taken root. Even though it is a lie.


The jigs might have created the chant, but again, stupid fucking white people are responsible for this.....way to go, hand wringing media douchebag assholes.

My disdain for lame, white libs is reaching an alltime high.
SRS question. While the evidence supported the theory that Brown was attacking the officer when first shot, there are at least four videos I know of that show unarmed black men/kids getting shot by cops while doing either nothing illegal or nothing that warranted getting shot. And while the very specific example of "Hands Up" slogan has a dubious origin, it's being corrected on NPR, a pretty reliable news source for hand-wringing liberals.

Given that, I don't get where derision over one corrected, inconsequential detail comes from. And while I haven't heard you say this, even the much more valid "Black Lives Matter" slogan has been attacked as well.

I sometimes get the sense that people look at the one sketchy tree and ignore the forest, which shows a pattern of black people getting shot by police unjustifiably. And maybe they're looking really hard for the sketchy trees so as to ignore the forest.

But I may be completely misrepresenting the position here of people pissed off at people in Ferguson who, on the whole, have a completely legitimate list of complaints when it comes to police treatment.

Why so aggravated?
I'm gonna guess that for every 'cop shooting an unarmed black man' video that's out there, there are two of cops shooting unarmed white guys. There's just not as much sizzle in chatting about that.

Black Lives Matter is a FARSE. Disgusting that anyone even entertains that movement given they don't recognize all of the black lives that die at the hands of other blacks (which as you know, far outweighs death by whitey or badge). They prey on weak minds and are fucking douchebags on par with Sharpton, period.

Spells, you lived in St. Louie as did I for 6 months. Know what? Fuck those unemployed assholes running around those streets in Ferguson. For every liquor store looting asshole Wolf Blitzer shows you on CNN there are probably 5-6 good, decent, (black) people who are absolutely ashamed of those mopes. But you'll hear nothing of those folks on the news.

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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Grandpa's Spells »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I'm gonna guess that for every 'cop shooting an unarmed black man' video that's out there, there are two of cops shooting unarmed white guys. There's just not as much sizzle in chatting about that.
In these videos, what I typically see is a scenario in which a white kid doesn't get shot in the same situation. That 12-year-old that got shot 2 seconds after the cops arrive? I don't think that kid dies if he looks Swedish.
Black Lives Matter is a FARSE. Disgusting that anyone even entertains that movement given they don't recognize all of the black lives that die at the hands of other blacks (which as you know, far outweighs death by whitey or badge). They prey on weak minds and are fucking douchebags on par with Sharpton, period.
I think you are conflating two distinct issues: police-on-civilian shootings with black-on-black shootings. They're different, and they're addressed differently.

The black on black crime stuff tends to get addressed locally by churches and what not. When I was in Rogers Park there were "take back the streets" rallies and community members occupying drug corners all the time. This doesn't get much media coverage, but that shit happens all the time. And there are all the related problems. When people, especially innocent people, get murdered, and nobody says anything to the cops, that's some shit that is on the community. They're going to have to stand up.

OTOH, when the government is shooting people, that's a different story. That's a civil rights issue, and your'e going to get different people involved. This is why I never really cared for the "Why isn't Jesse/Sharpton spending protesting this black on white crime or problems the community faces?" I dislike those two, but asking civil rights advocates why they aren't also working on non-civil-rights issues is like asking why isn't the NRA also working on international landmine injuries? Because it's a totally different job.

BLM is not primarily concerned with crime in black communities. It's concerned with the inequity in how society treats the murders of black vs. white people. That one came up when Trayvon Martin got shot. Now, maybe if a white blonde kid with family in the neighborhood got shot by George Zimmerman, the cops wouldn't have arrested him either. But a lot of people have doubts about that, and videos of cops killing black people where a white guy probably wouldn't get shot sees to back that up.
Spells, you lived in St. Louie as did I for 6 months. Know what? Fuck those unemployed assholes running around those streets in Ferguson. For every liquor store looting asshole Wolf Blitzer shows you on CNN there are probably 5-6 good, decent, (black) people who are absolutely ashamed of those mopes. But you'll hear nothing of those folks on the news.
Fucking St. Louis.

St. Louis has a history of pretty terrible treatment of its black citizenry. It's possible the guys I went to school with who were all "nigger this" and "nigger that" are now 40 and are perfectly willing to hire a black candidate, and I've seen some people on FB grow up to be exactly that, though they're not the majority. That sort of undercuts the "It's all on their problem." There's a history of black moving to a neighborhood (East St. Louis) racist whites moving out, and then blaming the black for the economic collapse. Whites and blacks in St. Louis don't get along, and there's a whole lot of conforming to stereotype there, on both sides.

Frankly, for the black people there, their only option is to move or deal with it. And if they deal with it by fucking up their communities, then they're going to be shit out of luck indefinitely.

That is a different problem than it being OK for shitheels like the Ferguson police department to abuse the shit out of those people, which is exactly what they were doing, Michael Brown completely aside (as that was ruled justified with forensic evidence backing it up).

And it's not just happening in Ferguson. That cop that murdered the motorist got fired and charged, but the other two cops on the scene backed up his version of events, and AFAIK haven't been charged or fired as accomplices. That makes it look like a systemic problem that warrants protesting.

tl/dr I don't think the legitimate complaint they have is de-legitimized because they aren't as loudly also addressing black-on-black crime, stop snitching, single-parent families, teen pregnancy, calling high achievers "acting white" or whatever else plagues the urban black poor (and FFS this gets talked about a lot, but doesn't make good TV) simultaneously and on television. Getting murdered by your government is a legitimate thing to complain loudly about.
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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

Spells, swallow the fucking red pill, already...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3joy3w9bwA[/youtube]


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Re: Michael Brown, Ferguson Missouri

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

Kazuya Mishima wrote:Spells, swallow the fucking red pill, already...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3joy3w9bwA[/youtube]
I don't know who this guy is, but wanted to comment before I found out.

41 minutes of my life well-spent. I would love one of our IGx vanilla lefties to refute anything he had to say.

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