IGX

bennyonesix wrote:I don't know what to tell you fucking guys.

Sure you do. You complain.

You can look on the ascendancy of lady Gaga and Johnny Weir and Jenner etc and just chill? I go out in public and I see what "normal" is and I... I don't know. It is not ok to me... That is all I can tell you.

I had to look up who Johnny Weir is, but if your definition of society going down the tubes is music trends and marginalized people getting less marginalized, you're crossing into "Old man yells at crowd" territory. In the 50's it was Elvis and a Catholic running for office. 50 years before it was letting the Chinese have jobs and the fucking existence of the saxophone.

I hate Gaga, but I remember hearing a mother chastise a kid in the late '80s for listening to Will Smith's "Parents Just Don't Understand." It's really, really dumb.

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:brainwash

such loaded terms.

one man's advocacy is another man's brainwashing.

there are no governmental overlords telling you how to think and silencing contradictory opinions.

we're seeing the rough and tumble of a fight about ideas in public. your ideas are losing. stop blaming these developments on big brother

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

bennyonesix wrote:I don't know what to tell you fucking guys.

Sure you do. You complain.

You can look on the ascendancy of lady Gaga and Johnny Weir and Jenner etc and just chill? I go out in public and I see what "normal" is and I... I don't know. It is not ok to me... That is all I can tell you.

I had to look up who Johnny Weir is, but if your definition of society going down the tubes is music trends and marginalized people getting less marginalized, you're crossing into "Old man yells at crowd" territory. In the 50's it was Elvis and a Catholic running for office. 50 years before it was letting the Chinese have jobs and the fucking existence of the saxophone.

I hate Gaga, but I remember hearing a mother chastise a kid in the late '80s for listening to Will Smith's "Parents Just Don't Understand." It's really, really dumb.

Lol. I am not surprised you are a MOAR GENDERQWEERs MOAR BETTER kinda guy.

This is masking real issues in the country.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.h ... ing-bodies

dead man walking wrote:

Yes, I'm drunk wrote:brainwash

such loaded terms.

one man's advocacy is another man's brainwashing.

there are no governmental overlords telling you how to think and silencing contradictory opinions.

we're seeing the rough and tumble of a fight about ideas in public. your ideas are losing. stop blaming these developments on big brother

Ha! True and well said.

This thread is boring except for Mickey's sig. But at least no one's called anyone else a "hater" yet that I know of . (I haven't been paying that much attention). That in itself raises the level of discourse far above normal internet standards.

You're welcome.

dead man walking wrote:
we're seeing the rough and tumble of a fight about ideas in public. your ideas are losing. stop blaming these developments on big brother

This is the sort of wisdom that we need in the world. When the young and ignorant people are in charge, the stupid gets out of control very quickly.

bennyonesix wrote:Lol. I am not surprised you are a MOAR GENDERQWEERs MOAR BETTER kinda guy.

I'm not, I have pretty strong biases against the whole trans thing. But this is what not caring looks like.

The "why am I not surprised" story tends to involve GOP congressmen, anti-gay clergy, and dudes on message boards who write about how they can't stand obscure gay figure skaters.

That is what I don't understand.

A "strong bias against" but you "don't care"?

Yes. 5 years ago. Yes. But now? It is a strong bias against something that is prominent in society and you don't care?

Meh as to your last sentence. It's just a dressed up and socially acceptable way of shutting down debate...

EDIT

Cancel my last sentence I misread what you wrote. I see what you were doing there now but i did miss your point.

#caitlynhijab

#johnnyweirisnotobscureishe?

bennyonesix wrote:That is what I don't understand.

A "strong bias against" but you "don't care"?

I'll assume you're serious.

What liberals get wrong about tolerance is that they think it means tolerating everything they already think is OK. That's not really tolerance. Tolerance is letting somebody else think/do/say things you may find personally objectionable, but are willing to put in the "it's a free country" box. Many liberals won't do that. Have a Republican governor give a college commencement and there will be protests.

For a minor example, when Brittney Spears back in the day married her childhood friend in Vegas for a day, then got divorced, that goes against what I think a marriage should be. I'd be pissed if my kid did that. But I'm not going to lobby to have that right legislated away or make angry posts on the Internet.

Similarly, I don't understand the transgender thing, and that may in part be a lack of interest in doing so. I don't know any out transgender people. I do know transgender kids get bullied a lot, and the suicide rates under the status quo treatment they receive are horrifying. I don't like the thought of kids feeling like they're unlovable and killing themselves.

Since the APA doesn't categorize this as a mental health condition, and people who transition tend to be happier, what the hell should I care about? AFAIK, Jenner doing so is the first time a well-known person has done this in the public eye. That is legitimately a major story, despite the reality TV angle. If widespread public tolerance of him/her gives some hope of acceptance to confused kids who might otherwise kill themselves, FFS let them have that. Who cares. Yes, it's going to be on the news. It's a major news story. But it's such a small percentage of the population that I can't imagine how this will ever impact me.

What is your "strong bias against it" then?

You think the treatment of Jenner is "tolerance" and not anything more?

You think that the way to show "tolerance" is to treat Jenner as he has been treated?

You think I want people to commit suicide?

Is there any cultural change that would effect your life?

SPELLS AND KAZ ARE THE ONLY ONEZ TALKING SENSE ON THIS THREAD. WHERE AM I?

Fukn Spells is right..

My head hurts.

So, ESPN gives this degenerate the Arthur Ashe Courage Award.

I bet John Skipper thought that idea was MAH-VELOUS...just MAH-VELOUS.

headline from yesterday

Barnard College, After Much Discussion, Decides to Accept Transgender Women

as other prominent women's colleges have done before

dead man walking wrote:headline from yesterday

Barnard College, After Much Discussion, Decides to Accept Transgender Women

as other prominent women's colleges have done before

That's because Debora Spar thinks it's a MAH-VELOUS idea...just MAH-VELOUS.




Meanwhile, this old white Episcopalian who championed for women's rights and educational opportunities is turning over in his grave.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

bennyonesix wrote:That is what I don't understand.

A "strong bias against" but you "don't care"?

I'll assume you're serious.

What liberals get wrong about tolerance is that they think it means tolerating everything they already think is OK. That's not really tolerance. Tolerance is letting somebody else think/do/say things you may find personally objectionable, but are willing to put in the "it's a free country" box. Many liberals won't do that. Have a Republican governor give a college commencement and there will be protests.

For a minor example, when Brittney Spears back in the day married her childhood friend in Vegas for a day, then got divorced, that goes against what I think a marriage should be. I'd be pissed if my kid did that. But I'm not going to lobby to have that right legislated away or make angry posts on the Internet.

Similarly, I don't understand the transgender thing, and that may in part be a lack of interest in doing so. I don't know any out transgender people. I do know transgender kids get bullied a lot, and the suicide rates under the status quo treatment they receive are horrifying. I don't like the thought of kids feeling like they're unlovable and killing themselves.

Since the APA doesn't categorize this as a mental health condition, and people who transition tend to be happier, what the hell should I care about? AFAIK, Jenner doing so is the first time a well-known person has done this in the public eye. That is legitimately a major story, despite the reality TV angle. If widespread public tolerance of him/her gives some hope of acceptance to confused kids who might otherwise kill themselves, FFS let them have that. Who cares. Yes, it's going to be on the news. It's a major news story. But it's such a small percentage of the population that I can't imagine how this will ever impact me.

I agree with you also. Here's what's wrong with Murikah as I see it.

You're right, the extreme left wants us to tolerate AND like everything that is out of the norm and that jives with their moral code.

I consider myself a liberal, but that does not describe me at all. I have the right to have an opinion and dislike things I think are weird. I tolerate it, but I don't have to like it.

The extreme right seems to want to make laws against everything they hate which is pretty much what the extreme liberals want to accept.

For example:

EL: "If you hate gays you are evil and should be ousted from society!"

ER: "If you are gay, there should be laws to take away your rights to function as a normal citizen!"

So, they both suck. A lot.

I just say live and let live. Not everyone can live up to the standard of the "norm". As if there actually is a norm.

bennyonesix wrote:What is your "strong bias against it" then?

There's a general, "What the hell?" thing going on, which I haven't put any real thought into. When it comes to discomfort with hiring, who my kids are friends with, etc., where if I were to replace "transgender" with "Mexican" I'd be racist.

You think the treatment of Jenner is "tolerance" and not anything more?

Depends on what treatment you're referring to. From some of the black community there have been some nasty comments, from conservatives as well. Fox News hasn't acquitted itself very well. Coverage and social media are polarized.

You think I want people to commit suicide?

Of course not. I'm just pointing out that the stakes here are pretty high for a lot of kids, so I am more willing to mind my own business on this.

Is there any cultural change that would effect your life?

Sure, I can carry a gun now in IL, though I don't. Cultural shifts affecting me negatively or positively would be more the case if I were a minority, a woman, in the military, or poor.

syaigh wrote:As if there actually is a norm.

norm has left the building, which pleases some and disturbs others

syaigh wrote:I just say live and let live. Not everyone can live up to the standard of the "norm". As if there actually is a norm.

A few things here:

1) You and Spells and I think the Left in general conflate Jenner's actions with the cultural reaction to those actions. The cultural reaction and fascination and embrace is what I am talking about and what disturbs me. That is an issue and one I don't think you all address...

2) There are cultural norms. How else do we distinguish between cultures and time periods? Elizabethan England had a different cultural norm than Edwardian England. Japan has a different cultural norm than France. The fact that it changes does not mean it doesn't exist. The issue is, what is the effect on society of a change to the cultural norm? Can we speak of a culture being "less" than another?

And yes, I get it, the Cultural Left is an elision of a radical Libertarian Individualism and Tribal Allegiance. The highest purpose of society is to further the expression of the self as a member of a non-dominant (white male) tribe. The stated aim is a pure expression of the self but when examined in reality it is the expression of the self as a member of a non-dominant tribe.

This is what I see happening with Jenner. The Cultural Left's Id is lit up by the sight of a white-male "becoming himself" through abandoning the dominant tribe and and joining one of the non-dominant ones via the action of ritual scarification/mutilation. It is just impossibly heady stuff...

What would Denny Hastert say? We need a good, solid conservative opinion on this.