Decriminalize all drugs

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nafod
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Decriminalize all drugs

Post by nafod »

Interesting article.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... rc=nl_draw
In a lengthy review of the state of global drug policy, the Hopkins-Lancet experts conclude that the prohibitionist anti-drug policies of the past 50 years "directly and indirectly contribute to lethal violence, disease, discrimination, forced displacement, injustice and the undermining of people’s right to health." They cite, among other things:

- A "striking increase" in homicide in Mexico since the government decided to militarize its response to the drug trade in 2006. The increase has been so great that experts have had to revise life expectancy downward in that country;

- The "excessive use" of incarceration as a drug control measure, which the experts identify as the "biggest contribution" to higher rates of HIV and Hepatitis C infection among drug users;

- Stark racial disparities in drug law enforcement, particularly in the United States;

-And human rights violations arising from excessively punitive drug control measures, including an increase in the torture and abuse of drug prisoners in places like Mexico.

"The goal of prohibiting all use, possession, production and trafficking of illicit drugs is the basis of many of our national drug laws, but these policies are based on ideas about drug use and drug dependence that are not scientifically grounded," said Commissioner Dr. Chris Beyrer of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, in a statement.
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WildGorillaMan
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by WildGorillaMan »

...this just in from the Department of No Shit, Sherlock
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

WildGorillaMan wrote:...this just in from the Department of No Shit, Sherlock
It takes a Herculean amount of cognitive dissonance and a healthy dose of Stockholm syndrome to keep us on this path.

The drug this country has a problem with is police state power and federal money to feed it.

Open invitation to any of you remaining idiot hold outs....pick a drug you're terrified of, come to Seattle and I will take it for you so you can see there's no boogie man. There's just chemisty.

No krokodil..,. That shit is unclean.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by JohnDoe »

I wish I hadn't just googled krokodil images.

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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Turdacious »

The study makes some good points, but is too broad to be of any use. The Lancet has a lousy track record when it comes to social aspect of medicine.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by DrDonkeyLove »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The drug this country has a problem with is police state power and federal money to feed it.
We demand freedom, love to control others, and hate those who control us while constantly demanding immediate action for or against something or other. Hyperactive cognitive dissonance disorder. Time for a Good Friday beer.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Turdacious wrote:The study makes some good points, but is too broad to be of any use. The Lancet has a lousy track record when it comes to social aspect of medicine.

You're adorable. The war on drugs is currently the worst human rights/equity problem this country faces.

We don't need any more studies...case studies...countries leading by example. We have ample evidence that only a fucking moron could confuse. Everything we based our understanding of addiction on is quite likely total bullshit and we have taken this prohibition experiment to its complete and utter failure. What would possibly compel anyone to think it get better from here?


Now a reasonable man would say...let's let the reigns loose a little ans study it as we go. Legal status for cannabis, rolling decriminalization of other classes bit by bit. Rely on the fairy tale logic of psychedelics and opiates belonging in similar classes all you like. I don't care if we do it in 1 month or 1 decade, the truth will out over time. If the drug warriors were right and the country begins descending into a drug addled madness, the death toll could not possibly be worse than it is now, and the logic of the Drug War may be proven.

There is no credible logic that supports extending the prohibition experiment, there is every reason in the world to try the next logical solution...in pieces or all at once.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Herv100 »

That's too much freedom and liberty for you, Comrade Nafod.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

DrDonkeyLove wrote:Hyperactive cognitive dissonance disorder.
=D> =D> =D>

This is a brilliant turn of phrase.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:The study makes some good points, but is too broad to be of any use. The Lancet has a lousy track record when it comes to social aspect of medicine.

You're adorable. The war on drugs is currently the worst human rights/equity problem this country faces.

We don't need any more studies...case studies...countries leading by example. We have ample evidence that only a fucking moron could confuse. Everything we based our understanding of addiction on is quite likely total bullshit and we have taken this prohibition experiment to its complete and utter failure. What would possibly compel anyone to think it get better from here?
Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't make it good science. Exhibit A- climate science.

And stop your microagressives!
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:The study makes some good points, but is too broad to be of any use. The Lancet has a lousy track record when it comes to social aspect of medicine.

You're adorable. The war on drugs is currently the worst human rights/equity problem this country faces.

We don't need any more studies...case studies...countries leading by example. We have ample evidence that only a fucking moron could confuse. Everything we based our understanding of addiction on is quite likely total bullshit and we have taken this prohibition experiment to its complete and utter failure. What would possibly compel anyone to think it get better from here?
Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't make it good science. Exhibit A- climate science.

And stop your microagressives!
What a precious soft cunt you are

A) I make no warranties as to the science. Only that the conclusions are somewhat obvious and the need to move towards them is irrefutably correct.

B) If you want to hang your hat with the oh so many mouth breathing retrogrades who truly believe that global climate science is anything but freakishly robust, you're a goddamned moron. Wait...lemme guess, you're gonna bring up how contested the theory of evolution is.

Fucking hell, Dude. You need some basic science in your life.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Gene »

nafod wrote:"The goal of prohibiting all use, possession, production and trafficking of illicit drugs is the basis of many of our national drug laws, but these policies are based on ideas about drug use and drug dependence that are not scientifically grounded," said Commissioner Dr. Chris Beyrer of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, in a statement.
[/quote]

People need to mind their own damn business. End the War on drugs. Pardon anyone who served time for possession or use.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Any person should be able to use any drug he pleases, but... these drugs should be sold legally, keeping some standards, creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs (growing, manufacturing, distributing and selling) and generating lots of revenue.

If someone freely chooses to use krokodile, let him do it... He is not gonna last long (lots of money saved; no future pension, no future expensive medical bills) and while he's alive and using he will be supporting an entire new industry. It's a WIN-WIN.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

SubClaw wrote:Any person should be able to use any drug he pleases, but... these drugs should be sold legally, keeping some standards, creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs (growing, manufacturing, distributing and selling) and generating lots of revenue.

If someone freely chooses to use krokodile, let him do it... He is not gonna last long (lots of money saved; no future pension, no future expensive medical bills) and while he's alive and using he will be supporting an entire new industry. It's a WIN-WIN.

You touch on an interesting point. No one who can get H will ever do krok...in fact, what makes addicts desperate is not using the drug..it's not being able to reliably supply themselves. Now, there are those among us (AA is full of them) for whom even when life is going great, the drug itself is too huge a pull. This is well understood with alcoholics...and even with those who are ruinously dependent there are a number of really really effective protocols for mitigating the harm, whether it's the AA highly supportive abstinence route or the so called wet houses for people who've basically given up.

With decriminalization comes a massive host of avenues to treat people who currently have a problem...people who would not be able to seek help because of the legal status of their drug of choice...and like we learned from weed in WA and CO, many many more people will try a new drug that can be bought retail...with weed, the effects are hugely positive. The stigma is what is killing us.

A close friend is busily trying to die from H and what ultimately set him up for this brinksmanship was the fact he'd lose his security clearance if he sought help. He was forced to choose and he chose H. Shitty way to go out but that path was made far worse because he likes opiates better than the bottle.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Testiclaw »

Treating addiction as a crime is fucking insanity.

And yet, here we are.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Testiclaw wrote:Treating addiction as a crime is fucking insanity.

And yet, here we are.

Still treating addiction as a crime is insanity, but it's been a long, and often good intentioned and stupid road to this point. Change takes time but it's on us.

Still, we should treat crime done by addicts as crime. No boo hoo. break into my place and give me reason to fear, I'll blast the monkey off your back, through your chest.

But harm no one, take no thing not your's, drive no car or the like while high? Do all the shit you want, IMO.

I think Pot needs to be legalised, Opiates and cocaine decriminalised and their manufacture and distribution more of an FDA and state agency matter. Meth production, sale and large quantity possession should still be hounded. While used who want help or who can hold up in their flat and harm no one should be able to, the cookers and others need to be left to Curious George's Drug Patrol, you should not shut him down totally, just limit his scope and make clear to him the difference between those he catches and the system will now help because they don't deal or produce and those he needs to direct being Officer friendly towards.

Also, none of this shit legal for kids under 18, Johnny Law should be on Mom and Dad's side when it comes to Junior's and Missy's adventures in para pharmaceuticals. Deal to kids, nightstick up the ass.




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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Wait, wait. How did you know I'd break into your house with a monkey with me?
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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I used to be all for full legalisation of all drugs. Then some years back a drug dealer set up in a flat near where I was living and I had every drug addict in my area camped out on my door step pissing, puking and dropping needles. Crime rocketed too. It's amazing what a bit of exposure to the realities of an issue can do to your cherished beliefs.

I don't know why people believe a blanket legalisation of drugs would suddenly alleviate all the problems they cause. It wouldn't stop the attendant crime that addicts use to fund their habit, it wouldn't decrease healthcare costs spent on treating these dog shit humans, it wouldn't stop them neglecting their children and raising the next generation of smack heads, it wouldn't stop the amount of benefits needed to sustain these unemployable losers, and it wouldn't stop the misery they cause to their communities.

It's not even going to save any money in the war against drugs. It'd be insane to think that the criminal organisations who are making billions with their established supply and distribution routes are suddenly going to say "well that was fun while it lasted" and give up. Addicts already prove they don't mind living outside the law and aren't suddenly going to want to pay all the tax people think. They'll just go to the cheaper dealer, same as always. So you'll still be spending a fortune chasing and incarcerating the illegal vendors.

When people say 'the war on drugs isn't working' what they really mean is it's too hard to win. It pisses me off that Western countries namby pamby their poor little addicts when the trade they support causes untold misery around the world. We don't treat consumers of child pornography as victims, we rightly recognise that the demand is half the problem and causes the supply.

Cannabis should have long since been made legal but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and take an all or nothing approach.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Rudy Van Horne wrote:ICannabis should have long since been made legal but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and take an all or nothing approach.
It's called America, bitch. Ban all guns or have everybody packing. No abortions regardless or free coat hangers on every corner. Legalize all drugs or lock people up for even having a pipe. A moderate approach...does...not...compute.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
SubClaw wrote:Any person should be able to use any drug he pleases, but... these drugs should be sold legally, keeping some standards, creating hundreds of thousands of new jobs (growing, manufacturing, distributing and selling) and generating lots of revenue.

If someone freely chooses to use krokodile, let him do it... He is not gonna last long (lots of money saved; no future pension, no future expensive medical bills) and while he's alive and using he will be supporting an entire new industry. It's a WIN-WIN.

You touch on an interesting point. No one who can get H will ever do krok...in fact, what makes addicts desperate is not using the drug..it's not being able to reliably supply themselves. Now, there are those among us (AA is full of them) for whom even when life is going great, the drug itself is too huge a pull. This is well understood with alcoholics...and even with those who are ruinously dependent there are a number of really really effective protocols for mitigating the harm, whether it's the AA highly supportive abstinence route or the so called wet houses for people who've basically given up.

With decriminalization comes a massive host of avenues to treat people who currently have a problem...people who would not be able to seek help because of the legal status of their drug of choice...and like we learned from weed in WA and CO, many many more people will try a new drug that can be bought retail...with weed, the effects are hugely positive. The stigma is what is killing us.

A close friend is busily trying to die from H and what ultimately set him up for this brinksmanship was the fact he'd lose his security clearance if he sought help. He was forced to choose and he chose H. Shitty way to go out but that path was made far worse because he likes opiates better than the bottle.
My point exactly.

Legalize everything. Manufacture way safer drugs (up to any FDA standard) and sell them booze-like cheap and there will be a whole new scenario. No more cartels, no more drug turf wars and no more drug related robberies.

I would also legalize prostitution, making them pros to pay taxes, pass regularly scheduled medical exams and have social security coverage. I don't see why sucking Proto's little sorry dick shouldn't be a legit profession.

It would be a HUGE win for the users/johns (safer, cheaper drugs and healthier twats), it would be a HUGE way to create long-term jobs and collect juicy taxes, it would end a war that can't be win, it would empty a great deal of prisons (less taxpayer's money spent, more people paying taxes)...

Frankly, I can't see any downside to this.

Or ban ANY health-risking substance for good, including bacon, and let's all live in an Orwellian nightmare where people are forced to eat vegan, exercise according to a predesignated plan and Crossfit is the tool to control masses.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Rudy Van Horne wrote:I used to be all for full legalisation of all drugs. Then some years back a drug dealer set up in a flat near where I was living and I had every drug addict in my area camped out on my door step pissing, puking and dropping needles. Crime rocketed too. It's amazing what a bit of exposure to the realities of an issue can do to your cherished beliefs.

I don't know why people believe a blanket legalisation of drugs would suddenly alleviate all the problems they cause. It wouldn't stop the attendant crime that addicts use to fund their habit, it wouldn't decrease healthcare costs spent on treating these dog shit humans, it wouldn't stop them neglecting their children and raising the next generation of smack heads, it wouldn't stop the amount of benefits needed to sustain these unemployable losers, and it wouldn't stop the misery they cause to their communities.

It's not even going to save any money in the war against drugs. It'd be insane to think that the criminal organisations who are making billions with their established supply and distribution routes are suddenly going to say "well that was fun while it lasted" and give up. Addicts already prove they don't mind living outside the law and aren't suddenly going to want to pay all the tax people think. They'll just go to the cheaper dealer, same as always. So you'll still be spending a fortune chasing and incarcerating the illegal vendors.

When people say 'the war on drugs isn't working' what they really mean is it's too hard to win. It pisses me off that Western countries namby pamby their poor little addicts when the trade they support causes untold misery around the world. We don't treat consumers of child pornography as victims, we rightly recognise that the demand is half the problem and causes the supply.

Cannabis should have long since been made legal but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water and take an all or nothing approach.
If drugs were legalized and sold as cheap as booze, you wouldn't mind having a "pharmacy" near your home.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

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Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:The study makes some good points, but is too broad to be of any use. The Lancet has a lousy track record when it comes to social aspect of medicine.

You're adorable. The war on drugs is currently the worst human rights/equity problem this country faces.

We don't need any more studies...case studies...countries leading by example. We have ample evidence that only a fucking moron could confuse. Everything we based our understanding of addiction on is quite likely total bullshit and we have taken this prohibition experiment to its complete and utter failure. What would possibly compel anyone to think it get better from here?
Just because you agree with the conclusion doesn't make it good science. Exhibit A- climate science.

And stop your microagressives!
What a precious soft cunt you are

A) I make no warranties as to the science. Only that the conclusions are somewhat obvious and the need to move towards them is irrefutably correct.

B) If you want to hang your hat with the oh so many mouth breathing retrogrades who truly believe that global climate science is anything but freakishly robust, you're a goddamned moron. Wait...lemme guess, you're gonna bring up how contested the theory of evolution is.

Fucking hell, Dude. You need some basic science in your life.
That study takes more shortcuts than a Trump speech. They talk about racial disparities in drug arrests, but not changes in crime. The implicit conclusions about Iran are another issue I have-- there's not enough data to make the conclusions they imply (plus the refugee issue complicates everything). Lazy science should never be acceptable.
For those who want to read the actual study: http://press.thelancet.com/DrugsPolicy1.pdf
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Rudy Van Horne wrote: Some stuff.
Several points.

First of all, with decriminalization, you absolutely will see a reduction in street crime, This is the first universal effect. Will it stop the cycle of "addiction" completely? Will it FIX addicts...? Of course not...but that's not that's not the question. The question is would it be better or worse? The argument at play is what we are currently doing is so catastrophically bad on by every possible metric that at the very least it's worth experimentation over time with decriminalization and then legalization as we have done with Cannabis.

I will give you my first hand observations based on years of experience both as a rec drug user and the fact I work and train at within 3 meters of the worst drug corner north of Sacramento. When post was decriminalized, there was an almost immediate effect of more "community oriented policing" suddenly, you take the cops off of having to keep up appearances, (people smoking weed on the bus type shiut) and they turn there attention to longer term interactions with addicts and normals who are frequenting the area. Whatever else I think about both Cops and Drugs, the police have a near impossible task when it comes to petty drug shit, take the lower tier of this distraction off the table and the street get safer..not by a little. BY A LOT..and this as just weed. When Weed was Legalized, there was a near 90% drop off in street dealing. There are still people slinging coke and H but they cant do it on the street. Why? Because the attention span of the SPD is now expanded at least by double. Anecdotes are not data. Those are my observations. But I've read and seen enough of the way other drugs are treated in a harm reduction model and the first thing you get? More effective Policing and better police interactions with the populace.

If there's one demonstrably true thing that you have completely fucked up backwards its that anyone prefers to live outside the law. Even massive criminal organizations are businesses....businesses that lose massive potential profits because they have a stranded asset. Now there's a massive difference in decriminalization and legalization. That's an area that warrants a lot of experimentation to get correct...but your fundamental understanding of the drug trade is flawed as fuck...esp. as it relates to the motor of teh drug sales, the user/dealer. Until you understand both the pharmacology and the nature of who is doing the transactions and why, your opinions are as useful to the discussion as a fart in the wind.

Secondly, here's where I knew you were a fucking moron.
When people say 'the war on drugs isn't working' what they really mean is it's too hard to win. It pisses me off that Western countries namby pamby their poor little addicts when the trade they support causes untold misery around the world. We don't treat consumers of child pornography as victims, we rightly recognize that the demand is half the problem and causes the supply.
Consensual use of rec drugs do not victimize ANYONE on the level your describing.(namby pamby?..fuck you son, you dont know shit about addiction, and you know far less about drug policing worldwide, that';s for sure) This statement belies that you are delusional on two fronts..One who uses and why, secondly how prevalent and unstoppable child porn is. Prohibition is an abject failure wherever is has been tried. When you say it's TOO HARD, it's because too hard mean scorching your own earth to win. With C. Pron, maybe that's worth it. You bring up the deman side? So..let's get this straight, you want to treat the demand side the way we treat the supply side? What are youa prison gaurd? Holy fucking shit we're losing and you want to double the fuck down?

I don't know you from Adam...but unless I grossly misread your logic, you might be pathologically stupid, incredibly sheltered (the "drug dealer down the street" rings hollow as fuck, pick better lies) or just an idiot. Crosssfit I'm guessing?
Last edited by Blaidd Drwg on Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Turdacious wrote:That study takes more shortcuts than a Trump speech. They talk about racial disparities in drug arrests, but not changes in crime. The implicit conclusions about Iran are another issue I have-- there's not enough data to make the conclusions they imply (plus the refugee issue complicates everything). Lazy science should never be acceptable.
For those who want to read the actual study: http://press.thelancet.com/DrugsPolicy1.pdf
So, enough with the red herrings...lazy science...climate science et al...That's all distracting rubbish as we know you're cleverer than that. No one is saying this is the bestest most completest study on the subject. It passes a certain amount of muster because elements of it are irrefutably true. Racial disparity in drug prosecutions for starters...but even thos are quite tangential to the overall question.

Just out yourself. Do you think that the WOD is working well? Just needs to be executed better? You think the way we are currently treating addiction and the attendant social ills is even remotely optimal? Given the resounding successes in places like WA/CO Is it not possible it's time to try a different approach? Incrementally of course.
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Re: Decriminalize all drugs

Post by Turdacious »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote:That study takes more shortcuts than a Trump speech. They talk about racial disparities in drug arrests, but not changes in crime. The implicit conclusions about Iran are another issue I have-- there's not enough data to make the conclusions they imply (plus the refugee issue complicates everything). Lazy science should never be acceptable.
For those who want to read the actual study: http://press.thelancet.com/DrugsPolicy1.pdf
So, enough with the red herrings...lazy science...climate science et al...That's all distracting rubbish as we know you're cleverer than that. No one is saying this is the bestest most completest study on the subject. It passes a certain amount of muster because elements of it are irrefutably true.
Stop it, you're better than this.

They use things that are 'irrefutably' true to cover for things they don't know, can't make solid correlations to, and can't prove-- massive red flags that should never be ignored.

No red herrings, but if they're going to do science, they should do it right. Given the Lancet's track record (the article that started the whole anti-vaxxer movement was in the Lancet), they should have better editorial control.
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