Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

Post by Turdacious »

Since the creation of Medicaid in 1965, the program has excluded payment for institutions of mental disease (IMDs) for beneficiaries 21 and over. Most residential treatment facilities for mental health and substance-use disorders with more than 16 beds did not qualify for Medicaid reimbursement. At the time Medicaid was created, states were responsible for the care of people with severe mental illness and the federal government did not want to supplant the state funding with federal Medicaid dollars. In April, the CMS finalized a policy allowing Medicaid managed-care plans to pay the facilities for short-term stays lasting 15 or fewer days in a month.
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article ... /160639991
In all, 11 states and the District of Columbia participated in the program, which kicked off in July 2012 and was supposed to end December 2015. However, state officials notified participating hospitals in April that the program was over because the funding was exhausted early. “Suddenly the funds just stopped, and we might not even get paid for some of the services we've already provided,” said Dr. Azfar Malik, CEO of CenterPointe Hospital, a psychiatric facility in St. Charles, Mo. Providers suspect the money ran out because millions more people enrolled in Medicaid beginning in 2014, when many states expanded eligibility under the Affordable Care Act. A CMS spokeswoman declined to comment on why the demonstration ended early.
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article ... /150619905

My .02-- good idea, but Medicaid is a lousy vehicle for this.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

Post by Testiclaw »

It's nuts that mental health treatment, care, and medication, can be financially-exclusive.

We talk a lot about mental health in this country. Whether it's a large cause for mass shootings is pretty argued, but, the fact that such care is out of reach is not.

It's sad.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Testiclaw wrote:It's nuts that mental health treatment, care, and medication, can be financially-exclusive.

We talk a lot about mental health in this country. Whether it's a large cause for mass shootings is pretty argued, but, the fact that such care is out of reach is not.

It's sad.
From what I've seen, most of the mass shooters come from families that made incomes above the Medicaid eligibility line. DC's results should be telling-- it has both a large poor population and a large homeless population; I'm not optimistic that either population was well served during the experiment.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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I'm pretty sure the majority of mass shooters didn't fall in the category of nuts prior to the shooting. I think the Va Tech shooter is the counter-example to that.

The ideal people to identify a potential mass shooter are the people around the guy. I've checked The American Rifleman a few times to see if they have any kind of a monthly mental health/decision making column to help teach gun owners what to look for as signs of trouble in other gun owners or even themselves for suicide or just plain bad decisioneering, and what active steps to intervene. I've never seen one, but my data set is small.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:I'm pretty sure the majority of mass shooters didn't fall in the category of nuts prior to the shooting. I think the Va Tech shooter is the counter-example to that.
And Adam Lanza and James Holmes and Micah Johnson and John Ladue...
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Turdacious wrote:
nafod wrote:I'm pretty sure the majority of mass shooters didn't fall in the category of nuts prior to the shooting. I think the Va Tech shooter is the counter-example to that.
And Adam Lanza and James Holmes and Micah Johnson and John Ladue...
How about the Grand Daddy OG mass shooter, Charles Whitman? Couldn't get a more clear cut case of brain dysfunction.

http://brainmind.com/Case5.html
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:I'm pretty sure the majority of mass shooters didn't fall in the category of nuts prior to the shooting. I think the Va Tech shooter is the counter-example to that.

The ideal people to identify a potential mass shooter are the people around the guy. I've checked The American Rifleman a few times to see if they have any kind of a monthly mental health/decision making column to help teach gun owners what to look for as signs of trouble in other gun owners or even themselves for suicide or just plain bad decisioneering, and what active steps to intervene. I've never seen one, but my data set is small.
Don't know about in their publications but they appear to endorse the general idea.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Schlegel wrote:
nafod wrote:I'm pretty sure the majority of mass shooters didn't fall in the category of nuts prior to the shooting. I think the Va Tech shooter is the counter-example to that.

The ideal people to identify a potential mass shooter are the people around the guy. I've checked The American Rifleman a few times to see if they have any kind of a monthly mental health/decision making column to help teach gun owners what to look for as signs of trouble in other gun owners or even themselves for suicide or just plain bad decisioneering, and what active steps to intervene. I've never seen one, but my data set is small.
Don't know about in their publications but they appear to endorse the general idea.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
That's a positive step.

The aviation literature (magazines, books, etc.) and others like rock climbing and kayaking all have articles and columns about risk, decision making, and postmortems on f$%-ups. What went wrong, what to learn, how to not do that again. How to recognize bad decisions in yourself and others. How to intervene, hopefully without violating anyone's rights. These communities police themselves, so to speak, through public shaming, at a minimum because it is simply the right thing to do.

I get the sense that the NRA and gun rags would never, ever do this, because they'd be worried that it would be viewed as an admission that guns are dangerous and maybe people aren't always so smart in using them. They've got their regular column of how a citizen with a gun prevented a crime, but a shit-ton more kill themselves and others through stupidity. It'd save lives to shift their position on this. Maybe they already do, and I'm not reading the right magazine. But finding a gun fuck-up to dissect is a target-rich environment.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

Post by Turdacious »

Where is your data on crimes prevented by a gun owning citizen vs stupidity deaths?
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Turdacious wrote:Where is your data on crimes prevented by a gun owning citizen vs stupidity deaths?
OK, I'm being a little flip about the stupidity piece, but over 21,000 Americans kill themselves with firearms each year.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:
I get the sense that the NRA and gun rags would never, ever do this, because they'd be worried that it would be viewed as an admission that guns are dangerous and maybe people aren't always so smart in using them. They've got their regular column of how a citizen with a gun prevented a crime, but a shit-ton more kill themselves and others through stupidity. It'd save lives to shift their position on this. Maybe they already do, and I'm not reading the right magazine. But finding a gun fuck-up to dissect is a target-rich environment.
Didn't have to look too long or too hard for this. Two days ago. An NRE publication. https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... /speak-up/
Shooting Illustrated wrote:With all things regarding firearms in the spotlight right now, it is even more important that we be very conscious of all aspects of gun safety. Don't ever be afraid to speak up over a safety issue. It helps protect our sport and, more importantly, it helps protect the rest of our shooting friends and family.
You can also take an NRA course where you will be regaled. They are good courses. Then again, unlike climbing, kayaking, motocrossing, there's not much in the way of decision making in weapons handling. Comes down to the below four rules. These are universally accepted. Any gun accident comes down to a negligent ignoring of one or more of them. Not much analysis is needed.
1) All guns are always loaded. (Treat them so!)
2) Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
4) Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Interestingly, the article you linked didn't say anything about drug industry representation or assistance in preventing suicide despite mention in the article of the contribution drugs play in suicides. Be sure that the drug industry really pushes the subscribing of drugs and rewards MD's for so doing. It's hardly hard to find some medical doctor who will prescribe you some sleeping pills or narcotics.

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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Turdacious wrote:Where is your data on crimes prevented by a gun owning citizen vs stupidity deaths?
Here's the source I was looking for.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

Number of accidental shooting incidents for 2016 is 1,200 or so
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/repor ... l-shooting

Number of defensive use incidents is 800 or so
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/defensive-use
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:
Turdacious wrote:Where is your data on crimes prevented by a gun owning citizen vs stupidity deaths?
Here's the source I was looking for.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

Number of accidental shooting incidents for 2016 is 1,200 or so
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/repor ... l-shooting

Number of defensive use incidents is 800 or so
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/defensive-use
The accidental shooting data I pulled from your link (which for some reason only included the last 501 incidents) showed 105 deaths and 391 injuries-- if that ratio holds true for the entire year that would be about 240 deaths.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Sua Sponte wrote:
nafod wrote:
I get the sense that the NRA and gun rags would never, ever do this, because they'd be worried that it would be viewed as an admission that guns are dangerous and maybe people aren't always so smart in using them. They've got their regular column of how a citizen with a gun prevented a crime, but a shit-ton more kill themselves and others through stupidity. It'd save lives to shift their position on this. Maybe they already do, and I'm not reading the right magazine. But finding a gun fuck-up to dissect is a target-rich environment.
Didn't have to look too long or too hard for this. Two days ago. An NRE publication. https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... /speak-up/
I went to the American Rifleman site and looked, and browsed last time I was at Barnes & Nobles. Step in the right direction. A small step.
You can also take an NRA course where you will be regaled. They are good courses. Then again, unlike climbing, kayaking, motocrossing, there's not much in the way of decision making in weapons handling.
The handling is the easy part, seems to me. Like don't stick your finger in a spinning prop, sort of duh.

I'm talking about decisions like my friend is despondent over his girlfriend dumping him after he got fired, and wants to borrow my glock. I'm despondent and want to caress my glock. Or should I slap leather with some thugs or just drop the wallet. Not shoot the pig in the head with a .22 because maybe the round will just bounce off instead of penetrate (don't ask me how I know about that one) or etc.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:
The aviation literature (magazines, books, etc.) and others like rock climbing and kayaking all have articles and columns about risk, decision making, and postmortems on f$%-ups. What went wrong, what to learn, how to not do that again. How to recognize bad decisions in yourself and others. How to intervene, hopefully without violating anyone's rights. These communities police themselves, so to speak, through public shaming, at a minimum because it is simply the right thing to do.

I get the sense that the NRA and gun rags would never, ever do this, because they'd be worried that it would be viewed as an admission that guns are dangerous and maybe people aren't always so smart in using them. They've got their regular column of how a citizen with a gun prevented a crime, but a shit-ton more die through stupidity. It'd save lives to shift their position on this. Maybe they already do, and I'm not reading the right magazine. But finding a gun fuck-up to dissect is a target-rich environment.
Maybe some truth about how it would be perceived if the NRA did it. Flying, rock climbing, and kayaking don't have people lobbying to ban them. However, the policing through shaming does occur. It's very common in the gun social media- forums, blogs. One high traffic blog (The Truth About Guns) has a regular news piece titled "Irresponsible Gun Owner of the Day". Forums discuss accidents in the news or negligent discharges quite seriously. In fact the term "accidental discharge" has been substantially retired in favor of "negligent discharge" in just the few years I've been reading online gun fora, as many feel that using the word accidental at all minimizes human responsibility too much.

Defensive uses get analyzed the same way, but guns have much the same problem as MA. If you are a responsible adult, mostly you argue about things that happened to other people. If you do need to defend yourself, you'll be really glad you can, but how often does any one person need to do so? Once or twice, maybe. If it's frequent, you have the wrong job/friends/neighborhood/drug habit, not the wrong training habits.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote: I went to the American Rifleman site and looked, and browsed last time I was at Barnes & Nobles. Step in the right direction. A small step.

The handling is the easy part, seems to me. Like don't stick your finger in a spinning prop, sort of duh.

I'm talking about decisions like my friend is despondent over his girlfriend dumping him after he got fired, and wants to borrow my glock. I'm despondent and want to caress my glock. Or should I slap leather with some thugs or just drop the wallet. Not shoot the pig in the head with a .22 because maybe the round will just bounce off instead of penetrate (don't ask me how I know about that one) or etc.
Why do you feel this is an NRA responsibility? By far and away most gun owners, me included, aren't members. Most don't read their publications. Nobody from the drug industry out there telling me to lock up my meds, the automobile industry telling me to not use all the horsepower in my car, and surely nobody in the cell phone industry paying anything but lip service to texting while driving. While that article I linked talked about being responsible for your safety and those around you, show me that for cell phones use.

By the way, training people to adhere to those four rules is not the easy part at all.

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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Sua Sponte wrote:
nafod wrote: I went to the American Rifleman site and looked, and browsed last time I was at Barnes & Nobles. Step in the right direction. A small step.

The handling is the easy part, seems to me. Like don't stick your finger in a spinning prop, sort of duh.

I'm talking about decisions like my friend is despondent over his girlfriend dumping him after he got fired, and wants to borrow my glock. I'm despondent and want to caress my glock. Or should I slap leather with some thugs or just drop the wallet. Not shoot the pig in the head with a .22 because maybe the round will just bounce off instead of penetrate (don't ask me how I know about that one) or etc.
Why do you feel this is an NRA responsibility?
It is a gun community responsibility (or ought to be) and NRA is a leader in this community.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote: It is a gun community responsibility (or ought to be) and NRA is a leader in this community.
Whoa, now, that smacks of that "it's YOU people" prejudice. I've gave some concrete examples that kill, maim and destroy peoples lives more than do guns. Are automotive accidents a car community (whatever that is) responsibility? No, we all know that when some jackass kills somebody because he drives too fast, is drunk, is dicking with her cell phone, that all car drivers don't have the responsibility and never fear that their horsepower or privilege to drink will be infringed upon nor will their unlawful cellphone use be taken seriously. No, in that case "it's the fault of THOSE people, they're not like us just cause they have the same things we do. THOSE people are irresponsible why should I lose MY privileges"

NRA ain't my leader.

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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Sua Sponte wrote:
nafod wrote: It is a gun community responsibility (or ought to be) and NRA is a leader in this community.
Whoa, now, that smacks of that "it's YOU people" prejudice. I've gave some concrete examples that kill, maim and destroy peoples lives more than do guns. Are automotive accidents a car community (whatever that is) responsibility? No, we all know that when some jackass kills somebody because he drives too fast, is drunk, is dicking with her cell phone, that all car drivers don't have the responsibility and never fear that their horsepower or privilege to drink will be infringed upon nor will their unlawful cellphone use be taken seriously. No, in that case "it's the fault of THOSE people, they're not like us just cause they have the same things we do. THOSE people are irresponsible why should I lose MY privileges"

NRA ain't my leader.
OK fine, ignore them. But here's what the NRA is selling, from their website, "...the NRA has, since its inception, been the premier firearms education organization in the world."

The sort of stuff I advocated for is risk reduction and safety promotion 101. It saves lives, full stop. If a tiny little community like sea kayaking and their magazines can do it, what is the NRA's excuse as "the premier firearms education organization in the world"?
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Sua Sponte wrote:Are automotive accidents a car community (whatever that is) responsibility?
http://www.nhtsa.gov/
NHTSA is responsible for reducing deaths, injuries and economic losses resulting from motor vehicle crashes. This is accomplished by setting and enforcing safety performance standards for motor vehicles and motor vehicle equipment, and through grants to state and local governments to enable them to conduct effective local highway safety programs.

NHTSA investigates safety defects in motor vehicles, sets and enforces fuel economy standards, helps states and local communities reduce the threat of drunk drivers, promotes the use of safety belts, child safety seats and air bags, investigates odometer fraud, establishes and enforces vehicle anti-theft regulations and provides consumer information on motor vehicle safety topics.

NHTSA also conducts research on driver behavior and traffic safety, to develop the most efficient and effective means of bringing about safety improvements.

We have a toll-free Vehicle Safety Hotline to provide recall information, receive SAFETY complaints and provide consumers with a wide range of information on vehicle safety. The Hotline operates from 8am-10pm Eastern Time, Monday-Friday. Calls during non-business hours connect to an automated answering service. A Spanish-speaking operator is available from 8am-10pm.
There is no government organization firearms analogy to the NHTSA. The gun community is left to its own devices, like climbing and kayaking.
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Not arguing that it wouldn't be great for the NRA to engage in and it would surely help solidify their position as the premier education source but they really do a good job of it. Simply because they don't teach what you think they should doesn't make them remiss, delinquent or malfeasant. I can criticize the course content of any university, or the content of any course at any university, on that basis. As a matter of fact, shouldn't universities be offering incoming courses on first aid, water and wilderness survival, weapons handling, self-defense....aren't these parts of producing a well educated student body?

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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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Sua Sponte wrote:As a matter of fact, shouldn't universities be offering incoming courses on first aid, water and wilderness survival, weapons handling, self-defense....aren't these parts of producing a well educated student body?
They are all offered here through formal courses and student groups (except I don't know of a firearms course or group), just not mandated.

Edit: we do have a rifle club and a skeet shooting club!
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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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First, as you pointed out, it's a gov't constructed and funded organization, not the "car community". Last year, 2015, one of the largest jumps in decades in highway deaths occurred. Who's fault is that? The NHTSA? The "car community"? The auto manufacturers? The civil engineers who designed the roads? What educational campaign(s) failed?

Next, you continue to make comparison between the kayak and climbing communities and the NRA. I don't get the connection. Another post addressed that the online gun community did speak about gun safety, shame those who mishandled, and even changed the vernacular from accidental discharge to negligent discharge. There's the parallel.


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Re: Progress in the fight against mass shootings?

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nafod wrote:
Sua Sponte wrote:As a matter of fact, shouldn't universities be offering incoming courses on first aid, water and wilderness survival, weapons handling, self-defense....aren't these parts of producing a well educated student body?
They are all offered here through formal courses and student groups (except I don't know of a firearms course or group), just not mandated.
Then you are saying that as one of the premier educational institutions you have failed to meet my expectations on your course work? I insist that you stop representing yourself as an educational institution.

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