IGX

Hebrew Hammer wrote:And, after South Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Yemen, it's empty to assume that settlements are the problem preventing peace.

From the statement:

In 2011, the United States vetoed a resolution that focused exclusively on settlements, as if settlements were they only factor harming the prospects of a two-state solution.

nafod wrote:They really need our money?

apparently.

the obama admin recently announced the u.s. welfare check to israel will be $38 billion over the next 10 years.

netanyahu has been openly disrespectful to obama, and for that, along with a fat check, he gets a parting poke in the eye.

by the way, why does new zealand give a fuck about this? are they and the palestinians members in some secret brotherhood of the sheep herders?

From State.gov

What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel?

EXAMPLES of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel, taking into account the overall context could include:

DEMONIZE ISRAEL:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism to characterize Israel or Israelis
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
Blaming Israel for all inter-religious or political tensions
DOUBLE STANDARD FOR ISRAEL:

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation
Multilateral organizations focusing on Israel only for peace or human rights investigations
DELEGITIMIZE ISRAEL:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, and denying Israel the right to exist
However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.

Trading land for Peace in the Gaza worked well for the Jews only if they were interested in collecting rocket parts.

They should focus on extensively raising goats in all families.

nafod wrote:OK, to play the other side of the argument...

1. Kerry wasn't lying when he said it has been the policy of the US Government since Reagan to promote the 2 state solution. Obama didn't create that policy, he maintained it. Reagan, Bush, Bush II are repubs, remember.

2. Under his term, Netanyahu has accelerated the settlements, which are in direct conflict with the two state solution that as policy we support,


3. while at the same time gladly taking over $24B in military assistance from us. Kind of a "fuck you" while sticking their hands in our pockets. I thought maybe he'd return it in protest. I mean after all...

Israel's economy also ranks 17th among the world's most economically developed nations, according to IMD's World Competitiveness Yearbook rankings. The Israeli economy was ranked as the world's most durable economy in the face of crises, and was also ranked first in the rate research and development center investments.[180]

They really need our money?

3. It is well-known that the Israelis spy on us like nobody's business, and Netanyahu's coming to address congress was as much a manipulation of an election as the Russians.

4. Does the UN pick on Israel? Yes. Is it going to change? Is whining going to change it? You know that answer to that one.

So HH, basically you are going to support a solution that involves apartheid? How'd that work out for South Africa? Or just push the Palestinians out of the West Bank to...where? Or out-breed them (you are) which means your population will double in 30-some years, which means you'll need land, which you will get from...where?

Not sure why the US of A needs to be deeply involved in this, why it is in our interest to get dragged into it, especially since you acknowledge realpolitik trumps ideals, and ideals of beacon of democracy in the middle east and stuff like that seem to be a core part of the reason to support Israel. The proxy cold war reason is pretty much gone? What is our interest in that mess?

Ok, one at a time.

1. 2-state solution was in the 1948 UN resolution. Israel accepted it, the Arab nations didn't, invaded, and ended up with Jordan administering the West Bank and Egypt administering Gaza. Probably a 2 or 3-state solution is what will happen one day when the Palestinians and the Arab Muslim world tire of war and dreaming of restoring the caliphate. The 3-state solution would be that West Bank becomes part of Jordan and Gaza becomes part of Egypt.

2. Netanyahu hasn't accelerated settlements outside the territory that in every peace plan would go to Israel. They have been primarily within the security fence in Area C. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank ... n_2005.png)

Plus I think the accepted view, though no one dare say it publicly (pre-Trump), is that Area C is vital to Israel's security. Having built settlements (now cities) there, facts have been created on the ground that make lasting, secure peace possible.

3. As to the money, America projects its power differently in different parts of the world. In some areas (Europe, Korea, Japan, etc.), we have extensive military troops and bases that run into the hundreds of billions plus the wars we wage. We've never had to stage troops in Israel, and Israel has never called on us to defend her. Between providing us intelligence, helping develop and testing weaponry, and serving as the only country in the Middle East that shares our Western ideals and democratic values, she is a good ally. Israel has one of the highest tax rates in the world and most of its citizens serve in the army - so she's not a slacker. My sense is that America benefits greatly from its alliance with Israel, and that the foreign aid we give her is effective, especially compared to the cost of other areas of the world we're involved in.

4.. The UN does a lot of good, but there are many parts that of it that don't. Whine - no. But speak up like Patrick Moynihan and Jean Kilpatrick - yes. And don't monkey around with the New Zealands of the world to engineer resolutions against allies.

5. Apartheid is one of those charges that's doesn't make sense. In Israel proper, about a quarter of the citizens are Arab. They presumably could leave at any time, but don't unless they get visas to USA or Europe. They live in the only free, prosperous country in the Middle East. They have parties in the Knesset, hold seats on the Supreme Court, and are actively integrated in every part of the country. Some, like the Druze, are in elite army units and hold many officer positions.

I don't think it makes sense for Israel to annex the area and make everyone citizens. They just have to make do until the Palestinians prefer normalcy more than war and dreams of the caliphate.

6. Our interest is in a world where our interests are protected. With Obama's relative withdrawal from the area, Russia and Turkey can probably resolve it, though my guess is that our ally the Kurds won't fare too well. Plus other countries have started to wonder whether we're reliable. Russia and Iran sent Arab immigrants pouring into Europe. Putin is probably quite pleased to see how the right wing parties are rising to power based on that. Iran is delighted to establish hegemony from its western border to the Mediterranean coast of Lebanon. Soon it will become emboldened more against Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and the other Gulf States, and it won't be too hard to destabilize Egypt and Jordan. Long term, do we care about safe passage through the Persian Gulf? Or what about safe passage only for Russia and China? Do we want to be facing a nuclear Iran with missiles that can reach our shores?

And on the positive side, do we want one democratic, free, prosperous state in the middle East to show the others what can be aspired to? What if in 50 years, the Middle East could become based on some version of capitalism, democracy, and liberty? That would make for a much safer world for our grandchildren. I'm not saying this is a good-odds bet, but we shouldn't abandon it either.

For better or worse, when America pulls back, chaos and power-players step in. That's why we want to stay involved and why Israel is so key to our interests.

and in your view, trump (with seeming isolationist tendencies) does what and affects the mid-east how?

dead man walking wrote:and in your view, trump (with seeming isolationist tendencies) does what and affects the mid-east how?

My wild-eyed dream is that he's Nixon to China, and makes a serious breakthrough on developing a new stable Middle East.

Real world, it's hard to see what will happen. My guess is he'll be happy to see Russia and Turkey carve up Syria and Iraq, and he'll probably push them to not wipe out the Kurds. Then the balance of power will be USA/Israel/Sunni v. Russia/Iran/Hezballah/Shiite Iraq-Syria. I don't see human rights flourishing in this environment, but it may stop the massive carnage and volatility.

HH wrote:My sense is that America benefits greatly from its alliance with Israel

In what way?

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

HH wrote:My sense is that America benefits greatly from its alliance with Israel

In what way?

In addition to sharing intelligence, weaponry advances, and supporting democracy and human rights, our interest is in a world where our interests are protected. With Obama's relative withdrawal from the area, Russia and Turkey can probably resolve Syria and Iraq, though my guess is that our ally the Kurds won't fare too well. Plus other countries have started to wonder whether we're reliable. Russia and Iran sent Arab immigrants pouring into Europe. Putin is probably quite pleased to see how the right wing parties are rising to power based on that. Iran is delighted to establish hegemony from its western border to the Mediterranean coast of Lebanon. Soon it will become emboldened more against Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and the other Gulf States, and it won't be too hard to destabilize Egypt and Jordan. Long term, do we care about safe passage through the Persian Gulf? Or what about safe passage only for Russia and China? Do we want to be facing a nuclear Iran with missiles that can reach our shores? Do we want a West run by rightist leaders committed to civilization war with Islam? All of those pose grave dangers to us.

And on the positive side, we do want one democratic, free, prosperous state in the middle East to show the others what can be aspired to. What if in 50 years, the Middle East could become based on some version of capitalism, democracy, and liberty? That would make for a much safer world for our grandchildren. I'm not saying this is a good-odds bet, but we shouldn't abandon it either.

For better or worse, when America pulls back, chaos and power-players step in. That's why we want to stay involved and why Israel is so key to our interests.

"And on the positive side, we do want one democratic, free, prosperous state in the middle East to show the others what can be aspired to. What if in 50 years, the Middle East could become based on some version of capitalism, democracy, and liberty? That would make for a much safer world for our grandchildren. I'm not saying this is a good-odds bet, but we shouldn't abandon it either."

I love this sentiment but since the beginning of civilization peace has been a fleeting state in that area

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely

Ha.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:"And on the positive side, we do want one democratic, free, prosperous state in the middle East to show the others what can be aspired to. What if in 50 years, the Middle East could become based on some version of capitalism, democracy, and liberty? That would make for a much safer world for our grandchildren. I'm not saying this is a good-odds bet, but we shouldn't abandon it either."

I love this sentiment but since the beginning of civilization peace has been a fleeting state in that area

peace has been a fleeting state everywhere.

relatively advanced civilizations maintained stability in the middle east long before similar civilzations existed in the west. around the globe, with few exceptions, stability resulted from absolutist rule. the middle east was stable recently under absolutists. the mess started when tyrants were removed.

democracy is a quirk of secularism. you can have the rule of law or the rule of god.

dead man walking wrote:democracy is a quirk of secularism. you can have the rule of law or the rule of god.

Very good point and we know which group is fully committed to the violent "rule of god". A particularly violent and aggressive god when it comes to infidels in modern times.

Caroline Glick, who I assume is Israeli, has some interesting points. I don't agree with the whole long article, and it may be confirmation bias on my part, but I think she sums things up well.

Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria and neighborhoods in Jerusalem are being used – as they always have been used – as a means of delegitimizing the Jewish state as a whole, and legitimizing Palestinian terrorists and Islamic terrorists more generally. Resolution 2334 serves to criminalize Israel and its people and to undermine Israel’s right to exist, while embracing Palestinian terrorists and empowering them in their war to annihilate Israel...

...With their automatic majority in the General Assembly and all other UN organs, the Soviets used the Palestinian war against Israel as a proxy for their war against America. After the demise of the Soviet Union, the Islamic bloc, backed by members of the former Soviet bloc, the non-aligned bloc and the Europeans continued their campaign. The only thing that kept them from winning was the US and its Security Council veto.

When Obama chose to lead the anti-Israel lynch mob at the Security Council last week, he did more than deliver the PLO terrorist organization its greatest victory to date against Israel. He delivered a strategic victory to the anti-American forces that seek to destroy the coherence of American superpower status. That is, he carried out a strategic strike on American power.

Grandpa's Spells wrote: On why the administration allowed the resolution to pass: tl/dr every American administration does this:

BS. Every administration has vetoed these types of resolutions, and for good reason.

And what of the "land for peace" policy that, literally, everyone has tried pursuing (but failed, thanks to the Palestinians)? Now, the Palestinians have land (Israelis living their now do so "illegally" according to the UN), but had to give up nothing.

Also, does it really make sense that Israelis can't live in East Jerusalem, home of the Temple Mount? That belongs to Palestinians??

Side note: the UN is a den of snakes, funded by the U.S.

dead man walking wrote:

nafod wrote:They really need our money?

apparently.

the obama admin recently announced the u.s. welfare check to israel will be $38 billion over the next 10 years.

Primary beneficiary US defense contractors

Say what you will about the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on them, their economic espionage and outright theft of our Intellectual Property, their political espionage against us, their overt influencing of every domestic election since post WWI, their convincing our elite to collude with them in reducing MENA to one giant Lebannon.... you can never take away the number of Israeli Soldiers who died and are dying alongside US servicemen in MENA and Afghanistan.

Turdacious wrote:

dead man walking wrote:

nafod wrote:They really need our money?

apparently.

the obama admin recently announced the u.s. welfare check to israel will be $38 billion over the next 10 years.

Primary beneficiary US defense contractors

welfare, nonetheless.

being rich and connected is the path to locking your lips on mama usa's triple-e, milk-dripping tit.

Turdacious wrote:

dead man walking wrote:

nafod wrote:They really need our money?

apparently.

the obama admin recently announced the u.s. welfare check to israel will be $38 billion over the next 10 years.

Primary beneficiary US defense contractors

Uhh what? Israel uses and has used USG money to make weapons it then sells to others. BO only just recently put a curb on it.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-israel ... 40117.html

Hah! Unless in your usual tendentious way you mean USG sends money to Israel and we then have a giant war where US Arms dealers supply all sides?

My favorite Israeli claim to helping the US is high tech. Like where ISR used USG money to pay +50% of the infrastructure cost of Intel chip manufacturing in ISR. But its because we are so smart and good at the high tech! Not to mention all the pharma IP they steal from us.

dead man walking wrote:

Turdacious wrote:

dead man walking wrote:

nafod wrote:They really need our money?

apparently.

the obama admin recently announced the u.s. welfare check to israel will be $38 billion over the next 10 years.

Primary beneficiary US defense contractors

welfare, nonetheless.

being rich and connected is the path to locking your lips on mama usa's triple-e, milk-dripping tit.

You gotta problem with titties?

JimZipCode wrote:

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely

Ha.

This statement is worth remembering.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely

Bump!

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely

Pinky wrote:

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Trump sees the world as it is. I hope and pray that he'll act sanely

Bump!

So, 1965 opened the door to mass culturally dissimilar immigration and the necessary cultural collapse. The first wave of white flight from the cities caused the initiall dip and the really big recent one was the almost complete self segregation of whites away from minorities (a massive inefficiency but better than dying).

Whites finally accepted reality and paid whatever it cost to move away from minorities.