hot enough for ya?

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Herv100
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by Herv100 »

Whoops!

https://reason.com/blog/2017/02/06/clim ... -temperatu
The Daily Mail reports that climate scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration manipulated temperature data to make it look like the rate of global warming is speeding up after 2000. Their study published in 2015 in Science called into question the existence of the 17-year long "hiatus" during which the increase in global average temperature had significantly slowed. In its 2013 comprehensive Fifth Assessment Report, even the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change noted, "The rate of warming of the observed global mean surface temperature over the period from 1998 to 2012 is estimated to be around one-third to one-half of the trend over the period from 1951 to 2012." The NOAA study instead found that the oceans are warming at 0.12 degrees Celsius (0.22 degrees Fahrenheit) per decade since 2000, which is nearly twice as fast as earlier estimates of 0.07 degrees Celsius per decade. This rate is similar to the warming that occurred between 1970 and 1999.

The goal of 2015 Science study, according to the Mail, was to convince policy makers and the public of the need to adopt what would become the Paris Agreement on climate change that aims to keep global temperature from rising beyond 2 degrees Celsius above the pre-industrial average. This goal would be achieved chiefly by curbing the emissions of carbon dioxide produced by burning oil, gas, and coal.

The Mail's reporting relies chiefly on claims being made by now-retired NOAA climate scientist John Bates whose expertise is verifying and archiving data. In an interview with the Mail, Bates is quoted as accusing....

...the lead author of the paper, Thomas Karl, who was until last year director of the NOAA section that produces climate data – the National Centers for Environmental Information (NCEI) – of 'insisting on decisions and scientific choices that maximised warming and minimised documentation… in an effort to discredit the notion of a global warming pause, rushed so that he could time publication to influence national and international deliberations on climate policy'.

According to Bates, both the sea surface and land temperature data were adjusted at the insistence of now retired NOAA researcher Tom Karl in ways that created specious warming trends and that both are now being reviewed to see if corrections are warranted. Bates also asserts that the data on which the 2015 study was based were not properly archived such that other researchers would be able to check what was done to the data.

So settled science? Not hardly. In February 2016, Nature Climate Change published an article by a prominent group of researchers led by Canadian climate scientist John Fyfe that concluded that global warming hiatus is real and thus strongly contradicted Karl's 2015 Science study:

It has been claimed that the early-2000s global warming slowdown or hiatus, characterized by a reduced rate of global surface warming, has been overstated, lacks sound scientific basis, or is unsupported by observations. The evidence presented here contradicts these claims.

NatureClimateChangeModels
Nature Climate Change

The above figure by Fyfe and his colleagues compares three different surface temperature records with 124 simulations from 41 different climate models. As you can see the models are running hotter than the actual temperature trends and the pace of warming did slow down after 2000. As Nature News reported: "There is this mismatch between what the climate models are producing and what the observations are showing," says lead author John Fyfe, a climate modeller at the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis in Victoria, British Columbia. "We can't ignore it."

Next in this saga of data slinging is a new study published in Science Advances just last month by the researchers from the Berkeley Earth group that concludes that the adjustments made under the direction of Karl at NOAA are basically correct. Today over at Carbon Brief, lead Berkeley Earth researcher Zeke Hausfather notes that the Daily Mail article failed to mention his study which found that the revised NOAA temperature data are accurate.

ScienceAdvancesHausfather
Science Advances

Hausfather writes:

In a paper published last month in the journal Science Advances, we compared the old NOAA record and the new NOAA record to independent instrumentally homogenous records created from buoys, satellite radiometers, and Argo floats. Our results, as you can see in the chart below above, show that the new NOAA record agrees quite well with all of these, while the old NOAA record shows much less warming.

This was due to two factors: the old NOAA record spliced together warmer ship data with colder buoy data without accounting for the offset between the two; and the new NOAA record puts more weight on higher-quality buoy records and less weight on ship records (versus the old NOAA record which treated ships and buoys equally).

In the Mail, Bates says:

Whatever takes its place, said Dr Bates, 'there needs to be a fundamental change to the way NOAA deals with data so that people can check and validate scientific results. I'm hoping that this will be a wake-up call to the climate science community – a signal that we have to put in place processes to make sure this kind of crap doesn't happen again.

'I want to address the systemic problems. I don't care whether modifications to the datasets make temperatures go up or down. But I want the observations to speak for themselves, and for that, there needs to be a new emphasis that ethical standards must be maintained.'

He said he decided to speak out after seeing reports in papers including the Washington Post and Forbes magazine claiming that scientists feared the Trump administration would fail to maintain and preserve NOAA's climate records.

Dr Bates said: 'How ironic it is that there is now this idea that Trump is going to trash climate data, when key decisions were earlier taken by someone whose responsibility it was to maintain its integrity – and failed.'

Bates' charges about data manipulation are serious and must be properly investigated (although how to do that dispassionately and objectively in the politicized field of climate science is not at all clear).
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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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jesus herv. pay attention.

previously addressed.

benny is still masturbating to the daily mail article though, so join his circle is that's the way you roll.
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buckethead
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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DMW. Is there anything that could cause you to doubt the veracity of IPCC conclusions on climate?


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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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first, i believe the evidence of change is strong, but i don't put climate change in the same category as gravity. drop me from a roof, and i know that without a doubt i will plummet down.

second, i believe the evidence is strong enough that rational public policy involves risk mitigation--clean power, for example--and adaptation. as a small for-instance, i would get the government out of property-insurance markets along the coast. no subsidies. let people absorb the (increasing) risk. i will return to the economics of the risk.

for my thinking to move, i'd need to see some evidence (a) that the currently "proven" connection between greenhouse gases and increased atmospheric temperatures is actually wrong, and (b) that some of the clear indications of change are stalling or, more compelling, reversing.

for me, temperature records are one important manifestation of change, but there is plentiful evidence of the effects of increasing temperatures. that's why i point out phenomena like diminished arctic sea ice, earlier springs and longer growing seasons, melting glaciers and melting permafrost, and rising sea levels. taken together, these and other developments make a strong case for warming and attendant consequences.

regarding the economics of climate change. i think we're in a tough spot. economic growth today absolutely results in an increase in greenhouse gases, resulting in climate change and serious problems. will policy prescriptions like a carbon tax and energy efficiency and renewable energy requirements be adequate to solve things?. i doubt it. but now i'm onto a new subject. i raise economics, though, because i think at some level, many deniers realize that you can't acknowledge climate change and continue with business as usual.

in any case, if you've got some evidence that raises doubts about warming and its consequences, i'd be interested to see it. at my age, i don't expect the climate mess to trouble me personally to any significant degree, although we now have ticks like never before. i guess that makes my interest theoretical. also, i'm convinced the human animal is almost entirely governed by emotion and given to denial and self-defeasting behavior. today, we're seeing it on a big scale.

perhaps long-winded, unlike your posts. did i answer you question?
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buckethead
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Yes. Well thought out. I think pollution should be minimized and our continued reliance on internal combustion is an engineering embarrassment. I fully support govt investment in nuclear and other clean energy sources


I just can't understand why that isn't enough. Why do we have to spend billions to collect, model, and predict climate change?

As for its "science", I find it fundamentally flawed. It's unfalsifiable. Their predictions from 10 years ago are way off but that is "explained" by new techniques, better equations etc. Truly scientific predictions remain true even if they get overhauled by new explanatory theories. Plus there seems to be no openness for debate. You are termed a denier if you even attempt to disentangle the political activism from the science.

That's not a science I want to hitch my wagon to


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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by bennyonesix »

Well said and this is why I say DMW is a stooge for neoliberalism. The only reason to pursue this global warming/climate change is to provide the elite cover to impose regimes which consolidate their and their paymasters power.

Every single traditional and effective environmentalist imperative is better pursued under different conceptual frameworks.

But, what we can guarantee under this "science" a continuous brouhahah and a smokescreen to sneak in neoliberal policy preferences.


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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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the only explanation i can conjure for the continuing expenditure on predictions and such is that so much money rides on the issue.

how much have we spent fighting in the middle east? how much turmoil do we have as a result? oil underlies our interest there. if we cured ourselves of our fossil-fuel "addiction," we could free ourselves of major military commitments (i think that's in part how the argument goes.)

his orangeness promised to restore coal to prominence. there is no kind thing that can be said about such an idea.

the "science," such as it is, gets intertwined with huge financial interests. i suppose in cases like that, people rarely behave well.

p.s. i own 8 things powered by internal combustion engines.
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bennyonesix
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Serious question, does anyone really believe that fossils are the source of petrocarbons anymore?


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Re: hot enough for ya?

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dead man walking wrote:the only explanation i can conjure for the continuing expenditure on predictions and such is that so much money rides on the issue.

how much have we spent fighting in the middle east? how much turmoil do we have as a result? oil underlies our interest there. if we cured ourselves of our fossil-fuel "addiction," we could free ourselves of major military commitments (i think that's in part how the argument goes.)

his orangeness promised to restore coal to prominence. there is no kind thing that can be said about such an idea.

the "science," such as it is, gets intertwined with huge financial interests. i suppose in cases like that, people rarely behave well.

p.s. i own 8 things powered by internal combustion engines.
Don't you see that it doesn't? Everything you want, that I want, can be better justified via different conceptual frameworks. The only thing warming/change provides is confusion and argument. And who benefits from it? The things we need to do are further off and geow further off the more we focus on this bullshit.

Cui bono? Who benefits?


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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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too vague for me
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by bennyonesix »

What is best argument for nuke power? Warming?

What is best argument for national parks? Warming?

What is best argument for livable cities? Warming?

What is best argument for throttling back "economy"? Warming?

What is best argument for agribusiness modernizing? Warming?

What are your top 5 policy preferences? Is the best argument for their implementation warming?


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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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i'll give you the first and the fourth, not that nukes have made a comeback and not that anyone in a position of power is remotely interested in downshifting the economy. "progressive" businesses think they can grow "sustainably." hah!

as for the rest, not really.

do you have a proposal for mankind to consider?
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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1) Abandon warming/change as a rhetorical device

2) Shoot the environmentalists who sold out on immig for Soros and Koch money

3) Argue for policies on an issue by issue basis.

4) Re-form the old eviromental coalition: northeast WASPs, North West WASPs, hunters and ranchers.

And this without the bombings and psych damage from CIA experiments in college:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... o.text.htm


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Re: hot enough for ya?

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warming is not a rhetorical device. as for the rest of your post, i have no idea what to make of it, except i'm impressed you were able to include the unabomber.

the bad news is with increasing western wildfires, seeahill's cabin is doomed. the good news is mar a lago is likely to be inundated, on a weekend when trump is visiting is the hope.

warming is happening. the consequences and costs will not be trifles.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Climate change may or may not bear responsibility for the flood on last night’s news, but without question it has created a flood of despair. Climate researchers and activists, according to a 2015 Esquire feature, “When the End of Human Civilization is Your Day Job,” suffer from depression and PTSD-like symptoms. In a poll on his Twitter feed, meteorologist and writer Eric Holthaus found that nearly half of 416 respondents felt “emotionally overwhelmed, at least occasionally, because of news about climate change.”

For just such feelings, a Salt Lake City support group provides “a safe space for confronting” what it calls “climate grief.”

Panicked thoughts often turn to the next generation. “Does Climate Change Make It Immoral to Have Kids?” pondered columnist Dave Bry in The Guardian in 2016. “ think about my son,” he wrote, “growing up in a gray, dying world—walking towards Kansas on potholed highways.” Over the summer, National Public Radio tackled the same topic in “Should We Be Having Kids In The Age Of Climate Change?” an interview with Travis Rieder, a philosopher at Johns Hopkins University, who offers “a provocative thought: Maybe we should protect our kids by not having them.” And Holthaus himself once responded to a worrying scientific report by announcing that he would never fly again and might also get a vasectomy.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... trophizing
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Turdacious wrote:
Climate change may or may not bear responsibility for the flood on last night’s news, but without question it has created a flood of despair. Climate researchers and activists, according to a 2015 Esquire feature, “When the End of Human Civilization is Your Day Job,” suffer from depression and PTSD-like symptoms. In a poll on his Twitter feed, meteorologist and writer Eric Holthaus found that nearly half of 416 respondents felt “emotionally overwhelmed, at least occasionally, because of news about climate change.”

For just such feelings, a Salt Lake City support group provides “a safe space for confronting” what it calls “climate grief.”

Panicked thoughts often turn to the next generation. “Does Climate Change Make It Immoral to Have Kids?” pondered columnist Dave Bry in The Guardian in 2016. “ think about my son,” he wrote, “growing up in a gray, dying world—walking towards Kansas on potholed highways.” Over the summer, National Public Radio tackled the same topic in “Should We Be Having Kids In The Age Of Climate Change?” an interview with Travis Rieder, a philosopher at Johns Hopkins University, who offers “a provocative thought: Maybe we should protect our kids by not having them.” And Holthaus himself once responded to a worrying scientific report by announcing that he would never fly again and might also get a vasectomy.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... trophizing
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And Holthaus himself once responded to a worrying scientific report by announcing that he would never fly again and might also get a vasectomy.

I support his decision.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

Post by tonkadtx »

Science can't ever become religion. Unfortunately, that's what it's become to some people. Is the climate changing? Yes. Are humans contributing to the change? Yes. Are climate scientists, blinded by some orthodoxy, constantly getting caught cooking their numbers? Yes.

This shit would get them failed from a graduate level science class.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... -manipula/


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Re: hot enough for ya?

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that's an old bullshit story previously addressed on this thread.

getting your climate science from the washington times is like studying astronomy by reading "goodnight moon."
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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There are quite a few stories of manipulating climate "science" data, starting from the Hockey Stick graph. Every time the response in the press (and from the faithful followers) is "it has been addressed". None of it has been solved, of course.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Hide the decline!
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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Sangoma wrote:There are quite a few stories of manipulating climate "science" data, starting from the Hockey Stick graph. Every time the response in the press (and from the faithful followers) is "it has been addressed". None of it has been solved, of course.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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please explain why arctic and antarctic sea ice are at record low levels?

show your calculations.

as an aside, explain how with the decline in temperatures that you are suggesting, february and dec-feb are the second warmest on record?

and while you're considering a response, fuck yourselves.
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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DMW, are you incapable of following the argument or just want to win it at all costs? In case it is the former let me explain it to you. The topic of the last few posts was: John Bates a Ph.D., the former employee of NOAA said that his former employer manipulated the data. It doesn't matter if the data supports or refutes whatever it does; manipulating scientific data is fraud and is unethical. It has nothing to do with the Arctic and Antarctic ice levels, calculations or current temperatures. Not that you can present any calculations of your own, of course.
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dead man walking
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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sangoma,

did you miss my post by a climate scientist refuting the bates stuff about data manipulation?

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-m ... ature-rise

there are others who establish the unreliability of the assertion. i get the point. apparently you don't.

also, vast sections of your great barrier reef are dying as ocean temperatures rise. why would the ocean be heating up? who's doing that manipulation?
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Re: hot enough for ya?

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dead man walking wrote: also, vast sections of your great barrier reef are dying as ocean temperatures rise. why would the ocean be heating up? who's doing that manipulation?
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