The couch thread

[Renegade Doughboy]

And furthermore...

Anyone who ever appeals to Tyler Hass as an authority on anything should be killed. Tyler is a simpering little cunt crossfit kool-aid drinker.

[stosh]

Musta been a great study, with such quality documentation and whatnot.

[Garm]

Truthfully, I don't give a fuck one way or the other. The ones that should are those who buy into the whole kettleball scam - I already knew that ballistic exercises and real strength were completely unrelated.

[cleaner464]

The only thing I ever heard of like this was when they got Yuri Vardanyan to broad jump over the hood of a VW at Gettysburg in 78'. I think it was a $500 bet, or something like that.

Not real scientific.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Funny post I stumbled across while looking for DD references:

http://forum.dragondoor.com/training/message/67871%5C

[Fat Cat]

TTT for the book, G!


From: Garm
Subject: Fitness
Date/Time 2002-03-03 09:55:29
Remote IP: 68.65.40.51

Message
Comrade,

I was in the Marine Corps from 1977 to 1983, a little over 5 years. I was in a variety of units but ended up in 2nd Force Recon company. The only war during that period was the cold war, and most of the operations are still classified. I finished a book a year ago and am still trying to get it past the censors at the DoD. If you checked the public records, you would find 2FR people involved in conflicts and small operations in El Salvador, Guatemala, Peru, Nicaragua, Somalia, Ethiopia, Iran, Yemen, and even North Korea and Poland. One of us contracted AIDS via a transfusion in central america, for example, and Clinton finally declassified the op to get the fellow some medical attention. Gave him a posthumous purple heart, too. This made the papers, as did the FUBAR Iran hostage rescue. Generally, publicity means a screw up. Since they are still declassifying Korean War actions, my hope of obtaining permission is slim.

The non-public records include just about every hot spot you can think of, as we were often detailed to civilian agencies for specific assignements. These will encompass supporting every right-wing dictator of the period, which takes away a lot of the wonder at why we are hated throughout much of the world.

Garm

[cleaner464]

Still, no matter. Here's the world's Strongest Man; http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news ... cgi/2/3481

[Shapecharge]

Move it over to the fs forum Mak and it'll get 2000 hits.

[Andy77]

The results of such experiments should be able to be duplicated by other studies with different subjects.

Ross Hunt states that anybody can snatch more weight with a barbell than with a Kettlebell. I didn't practice it very much but in a comp. I was only able to one arm BB snatch 60#. Missed 80#. So my results do not support Mr. Hunt's assertion. How about you other lie-men?

[bill fox]

Coach called me dumbass.

It's useless. It's all interesting discussion till Coach comes along and calls you a dumbass - then the moonies jump in and say yeah "Wow, Bill". Interestingly no one says "Wow Coach, dumbass, that's pretty immature"

There's no point in saying when I said "KB line of action" I was of course reffering to the line of action of the hip, since that's what we were talking about. No use in telling the other douche that I said neither KBs or CF are proven, yet.

And that's that for that.

[GoDogGo!]

Andy, my guess is that his claim comes from the stabilization provided by the bar. With the bar you can lose the weight to the front or back, but the sides are largely stabilized by holding the bar. Not so with KBs.

But still, no studies of such, and there aren't a lot of seriously heavy KBs laying around to do it with, either. A more realistic comparison would be between power cleans/snatches and KB lifts, since that's really what the KB lifts are as commonly performed.

GDG!

[GoDogGo!]

Shit, that was unclear. I mean it's stabilized with a 2-arm BB lift, as opposed to lifting 2 independent KBs at the same time, which are free to move to the sides.


GDG!

[ultracool]

I predict that Crossfit will become the preferred weapon of discerning exercise bulimics.

[Ross Hunt]

Shit, that was unclear. I mean it's stabilized with a 2-arm BB lift, as opposed to lifting 2 independent KBs at the same time, which are free to move to the sides.


GDG!

GDG,

That may or may not be true. My experience w/ heavy double KB lifts is limited: I haven't attempted a double C+J with more than two 2 poods or a double snatch with more than 1.5s.

I said that BB lifts beat double KB lifts because the off-center weight distribution of the KB prohibits a first/second pull sequence. What does this mean?

In the first pull, you don't extend your back much. In the second, you extend it a LOT (some lifters even arch and lean BACK). This is what makes the weight go up and BACK rather than just up; barbell ends up somewhere above the middle to back of your head. Weak second pull = you lose the weight out front.

KB snatch: The bell's center of mass goes forward of your hand and has to go even farther forward as it whips around to pull your arm back. Finishing position of the grip and often the center of mass ends up in front of the middle of your head. The longer ROM, and the time it takes the bell to whip around, means that you can never hoist as much weight with a KB as you could with a barbell; the whip-around precludes squatting under. The oly equivalent of the whip-around is what some people call the third pull - but IT involves pulling yourself under the barbell as you press it out; the centered mass of the barbell allows you to execute the second and third pull with no time in between them.

Something similar seems to happen with the jerk or push-press. The off-center weight of the KBs causes this ugly drag effect as it cames off your shoulder; the leg drive isn't communicated to the weight as well as it is in a barbell jerk of any kind, and even if you dip under the weight at the end (as Mike Mahler sometimes teaches people to do, to good effect), it's still more of a shoulder strength move than the barbell equivalents. When I jerk 2 2 poods for reps, the bells stall coming off the shoulder; in the 145# barbell push-press, they stall at the top if they stall anywhere.

Just the extensive two cents of somebody who is still a few pounds away from a bodyweight snatch. Joe knows this a lot better than I do, so if you really want to get this, you might ask him.



Andy,

I'm not sure. I haven't played around with 1-arm barbell snatches in almost a year. 75# was WAY harder than a 2-pood snatch, but will a 150/ 200# one-arm snatch be harder than 100/200# KB snatch. I dunno. There was a link to some badass one-arm barbell snatching on DD a while back that showed this guy (bearded, drunk guy in a cold garage - Canadian, Scandanavian?) hoisting some serious weight (200 pounds? Can't remember). He used oly technique to do it, and I doubt he could have muscled up a kettlebell of that weight.

Anyway, stop your contrarian! The point is how much you can put up with two hands, is that not obviously?

[TomFurman]

What did Glassman and Nate Morrison have a war over??

--Tom

[Grandpa's Spells]

What did Glassman and Nate Morrison have a war over?

Scuttlebutt sez Couch G showed up on a spec op forum touting his methods in what I'm sure was his usual modest fashion, and Nate flamed him over lack of evidence and credentials. Couch wasn't pleased.

[offroadbiker]

Andy,

I'm not sure. I haven't played around with 1-arm barbell snatches in almost a year. 75# was WAY harder than a 2-pood snatch, but will a 150/ 200# one-arm snatch be harder than 100/200# KB snatch. I dunno. There was a link to some badass one-arm barbell snatching on DD a while back that showed this guy (bearded, drunk guy in a cold garage - Canadian, Scandanavian?) hoisting some serious weight (200 pounds? Can't remember). He used oly technique to do it, and I doubt he could have muscled up a kettlebell of that weight.

I've been trying 1-arm snatches the past couple workouts with db's and bb's.. The 'feel' of my 92# kb and 90# db is alot heavier for me than a 95# bb. Weird.

[Grandpa's Spells]

This is still a top thread on both forums, so this must still be fun.

Bill, having read your post here and your post on XFit, I am unclear as to what your claim is.

It seems unclear on XFit, too. Hard to believe the lack of clarity isn't willful. Couch said: the line of KB snatch "will not develop athletic explosiveness." Note that there were no qualifying remarks regarding load. Bill pointed out that that sounds like horse shit, given the attributes of what we, and many KB-centric CrossFitter's see in people who do ballistic lifts with heavy KBs. That's his claim.

It seems clear to me that snatching a barbell and snatching a kettlebell develop different athletic abilities, if only because the groove of the KB snatch and the groove of the snatch are very different, and the latter always admits of a greater load.

I pretty much agree. But that doesn't have much to do with Glassman's statement. According to him, one doesn't develop explosiveness because of the plane required by the implements. Zero to do with load unless he's going to backpedal. He also agreed with Russ in the comparison between high jumpers (WL plane) and long jumpers (KB plane). I was under the silly impression long jumpers were kind of explosive. So far, none of the people making actual arguments (you, Robb Wolf, etc.) on either forum seem to acutally agree with Greg. They seem to be agreeing with Bill's rejection of Couch's statement as put while being pissed at his not being nicer about it.

For those watching on MoonieVision, when Bill said "stir shit," he likely meant that questioning an obvious falsehood would likely result in much lots of posts on your end that didn't have much to do with the topic at hand. He was obviously completley wrong.

So. How 'bout those 700+ lb. deadlifters?

[Ross Hunt]

Couch said: the line of KB snatch "will not develop athletic explosiveness." Note that there were no qualifying remarks regarding load. Bill pointed out that that sounds like horse shit, given the attributes of what we, and many KB-centric CrossFitter's see in people who do ballistic lifts with heavy KBs. That's his claim.

It seems clear to me that snatching a barbell and snatching a kettlebell develop different athletic abilities, if only because the groove of the KB snatch and the groove of the snatch are very different, and the latter always admits of a greater load.

I pretty much agree. But that doesn't have much to do with Glassman's statement. According to him, one doesn't develop explosiveness because of the plane required by the implements. Zero to do with load unless he's going to backpedal. He also agreed with Russ in the comparison between high jumpers (WL plane) and long jumpers (KB plane). I was under the silly impression long jumpers were kind of explosive. So far, none of the people making actual arguments (you, Robb Wolf, etc.) on either forum seem to acutally agree with Greg. They seem to be agreeing with Bill's rejection of Couch's statement as put while being pissed at his not being nicer about it.

Well, how people choose to conduct themselves over the Internet is entirely their business, and if they do so in a way that is anything is less than the paragon of grace, it's the place of others with more time under the bar to say something about it, not mine. I'm just trying to scavange a better understanding of the difference between swing, olys, and other kinds of hip extension from the debate, whatever the motives of the 'sides.'

The jumping analogy is interesting... I gotta really think the analogy between the second pull and the vert through, though. From my limited leaping experience, I'm inclined agree that the motion of the body is more similar to a second pull than a swing. But the barbell pulls the center of body mass forward during the second pull, changing the combined center of mass of lifter and barbell, so the second pull still comes from your p-chain as well as quads and calves. So it still seems to me that the push-jerk might be closer to a vertical leap. Of course, for me this point is at present moot, since I work both lifts and neither, but rather the back squat, is the limiting factor for me...

As to load... power is weight[mass?]xdistance / time, so it seems like saying that the KB's line of action is deficient with respect to power amounts to saying: 'Oly lifts are either faster than KB lifts, or allow to move more weight, or both.' Everyone knows that Oly lifts DO involve more weight than KB lifts, so I just connected the dot; this is why it seemed to me like Coach Glassman was talking about load.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Gotcha. So, just to be clear, do you agree or disagree that KB balistic lifts do not train explosiveness? That is what Bill and others take exception to.

[bill fox]

Exactly

Glassman's 2 head honchos posted and neither one backed him up BECAUSE WHAT HE SAID WAS SILLY.

First he tried to put the rabbit in the hat by showing somone SWINGING not snatching a lightish KB and comparing it to a BB snatch.

Then he states that the one line of force develops explosiveness and one doesn't - FOR WHAT -"athletics" - want to tell me what that means, and what seperates the 2? Only hip scoop develops athletic exsplosivness?

AND no one seems to want to talk about tthe fact that HIS post was CLEARLY designed to stir shit - he wasn't just talking about kettlebells and lines of force, he took a direct shot at "FANS OF KETTLEBELLS". The same people he previously said "intelligent people everywhere are laughing at". Then his skinny little douch has the balls to defend him on the grounds I'm not being classy. Fuck that blind double standard bullshit.

I asked for someone to demonstrate to me why what he said wasn't utter nonsense, no one has even come close, and the ones with "time under the bar" aren't even trying.

Bill

[DikTracy6000]

Exactly

Glassman's 2 head honchos posted and neither one backed him up BECAUSE WHAT HE SAID WAS SILLY.

First he tried to put the rabbit in the hat by showing somone SWINGING not snatching a lightish KB and comparing it to a BB snatch.

Then he states that the one line of force develops explosiveness and one doesn't - FOR WHAT -"athletics" - want to tell me what that means, and what seperates the 2? Only hip scoop develops athletic exsplosivness?

AND no one seems to want to talk about tthe fact that HIS post was CLEARLY designed to stir shit - he wasn't just talking about kettlebells and lines of force, he took a direct shot at "FANS OF KETTLEBELLS". The same people he previously said "intelligent people everywhere are laughing at". Then his skinny little douch has the balls to defend him on the grounds I'm not being classy. Fuck that blind double standard bullshit.

I asked for someone to demonstrate to me why what he said wasn't utter nonsense, no one has even come close, and the ones with "time under the bar" aren't even trying.

Bill

Bill, have you secretly given names to your Kettlebells?

[bill fox]

Never got to Second,

I don't even use them. Has nothing to do with defending kettlebells.

Bill

[GoDogGo!]

Good-god-a-mighty, it's still going on and I'm still here too. And I know better...

This discussion of whether KBs train explosiveness better than BBs borders on the "Who is stronger, gymnasts or powerlifters" argument, which is really just another version of "Could Batman beat up Spiderman."

Want to test it? Fine, get a whole ladder of heavy KB pairs made and do a trial of many lifters randomly assigned to the two groups; BB and KB. Then have them test on explosiveness in athletic activities such as high jump, broad jump, and hitting a tackling dummy. Until then everyone involved in the discussion is just jerking off.

This will cost a pretty penny, so I suggest that Garm, with his love of all things kettleball, use his legal settlement money to fund it.



GDG!

[DikTracy6000]

Never got to Second,

I don't even use them. Has nothing to do with defending kettlebells.

Bill

I know, just jerkin your chain.