The couch thread

[Grandpa's Spells]

Good-god-a-mighty, it's still going on and I'm still here too. And I know better...

This discussion of whether KBs train explosiveness better than BBs borders on the "Who is stronger, gymnasts or powerlifters" argument, which is really just another version of "Could Batman beat up Spiderman."

My God, you actually can't read.

Bill, me, anybody, are not saying which is "better." We aren't saying more efficent. We aren't talking about load. We are saying:

This relatively low powered line of action, though adequate for developing aerobic and anaerobic strength endurance, will not develop athletic explosiveness though fans of the kettlebell claim otherwise.

Is false.

To fucking reiterate, Glassman's position was: KB line of action = not developing explosiveness. Not load. Not another way to skin the cat. Not free-to-be-you-and-me. Mini-Me loves chocolate. Scottie don't.

[stosh]

I've no horse in this race, but from what I've read in the past couple days here and there:

Two people there have faster "Grace" times with no improvement in their Oly lifts. Improvement was only obtained after working on technique. No shit.

Croch says that pulling 250 for 21 reps with a fast heart rate equates to a 500 pound single with a normal heart rate. Some questionable shit.

And, of korce, the 750 lb deadlift claim. Unsubstantiated shit.

Sounds a lot like the DD food fight forum. Everyone saying this is the best way to do something but no one at the top of the game (any game) is doing it that way.

[szczepan]

This is a great thread. Why are the cultfitters posting and discussing the picture of Bill's trafficstopping abs and not the last(read first) cf type to DL 700+ AS A RESULT OF STRICTLY ADHERING TO THE CF TRAINING MODEL ?

[Grandpa's Spells]

This is a great thread. Why are the cultfitters posting and discussing the picture of Bill's trafficstopping abs and not the last(read first) cf type to DL 700+ AS A RESULT OF STRICTLY ADHERING TO THE CF TRAINING MODEL ?

At the risk of giving ammo to the subject changers...

The funny thing is that they initially loved him because of that exact picture. He got stud cred really early. Turn down the Kool-Aid, and it goes from, "Look at that picture, he's so hawt!" to "Look at that picture he's so stoopid!" Thebaudau on T-Mag has talked a lot about this phenomenom. He didn't get any smarter in between the time he went from being a fattish guy to being a lean bodybuilder type, but his business exploded once he posted his makeover pictures, including from people who's training goals weren't body-comp related.

[stosh]

The couple times I've scrolled thru the comments on a CF DL day, I've never seen anything over 500 lb. Only a couple bumping over 400. Most of the dudes are in the low to mid 300s, it seems. You'd think there'd be a few over 500, if only by those who started high or have chosen to specialize a bit. It's a pretty big population, no?

[szczepan]

Bill is a stud. So are 90 something % of the CFers I know. The same was true of KBs about 4 years ago. My bold prediction is that CF will continue to get fitness media exposure, peak, and later be relegated to TAE-BO or BODYPUMP status after the next big thing comes along. Reread Garm's post about CF,RKC, and Jehovah's witnesses... I am beginning to see the light.

[GoDogGo!]

My God, you actually can't read.

Actually I can read, but I should take the time to write more carefully. There IS a lot of back and forth on that whole thread (at CF) about pull KB snatch vs. swing, double knee bend, and whatnot. I should have specified that's what I was kvetching about.

And I still say it's all stupid. Not as stupid as Coach's initial assertion that you quoted, ("This relatively low powered line of action..." though.

And Bill should get new glasses, because the ones in that pic are goofy.

GDG!

[Ross Hunt]

Gotcha. So, just to be clear, do you agree or disagree that KB balistic lifts do not train explosiveness? That is what Bill and others take exception to.

If explosiveness is speed-strength, then I definitely agree.

KBs are neither heavy enough to deliver limit strength nor fast enough to deliver speed. Was there ever any doubt about this?

Whether oly lifts are the holy grail of speed-strength training is still up for debate, as far as I can tell, but at least with oly lifts you can lift a heavy weight and you can lift it without the implement's center of mass preventing you from lifting it fast. I do not believe that the same can be said for KBs, or that KBs were ever intended for this purpose.

Anyhoo, it looks like this argument (if it was ever much of an argument) is for the most part degenerating into a pissing contest on both message boards, so...

[Shafpocalypse Now]

But here's the fascinating part. We can take you from a 200 pound max deadlift to a 500-750 pound max deadlift in two years while only pulling max singles four or five times a year. We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions. It may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable.

The above quote is from the interview in question. 500-750 is one very large range, so he's not just talking about 750.

[bill fox]

The thread at CF is great for many reasons:

1) The last post by a senior member points out that of course there's no proof at all for Coach's assertion. So far no one has even really tried to address the initial issue.

2) They post a picture of me that 95% of them would give there left ball to look like at age 43 when it was taken. A really funny pic would be one of Coach with no shirt on.

3) It's pure flaming now, which supposedly they don't allow and should have been deleted long ago by Lynn, excuse me, Lynne - except this is a Coach approved thread.

4) They're all reading this thread, obviating the need to post there.

5) Matt G. can't believe that someone in my position is fighting about fitness on line, like it's a cyber crime. He needs to get out more. And he held himself back from commenting on my picture. I'd love to hear those comments. I'm sure they would fall woofully short of what has been so throughly brought upon me here by the masters.

I was going to post a link to more pics
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/18/fox1.html

but I'm going to stick to my guns and let them jerk themselves off till they get bored.

[szczepan]

But here's the fascinating part. We can take you from a 200 pound max deadlift to a 500-750 pound max deadlift in two years while only pulling max singles four or five times a year. We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions. It may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable.

The above quote is from the interview in question. 500-750 is one very large range, so he's not just talking about 750.

It is an extremely large range. If he mean't 500-550 that is what he should have said. Why not make the range 500-1,000? If the 7 is a typo someone should clarify. He was lying, pure and simple.

[greenghost]

All the senior members at CF are busy gagging on glassmans goo!

[Shafpocalypse Now]

I'm just putting the relevant material in this thread so everyone can see exactly what it says for itself.

[offroadbiker]

Gotcha. So, just to be clear, do you agree or disagree that KB balistic lifts do not train explosiveness? That is what Bill and others take exception to.

If explosiveness is speed-strength, then I definitely agree.

KBs are neither heavy enough to deliver limit strength nor fast enough to deliver speed. Was there ever any doubt about this?

Whether oly lifts are the holy grail of speed-strength training is still up for debate, as far as I can tell, but at least with oly lifts you can lift a heavy weight and you can lift it without the implement's center of mass preventing you from lifting it fast. I do not believe that the same can be said for KBs, or that KBs were ever intended for this purpose.

Anyhoo, it looks like this argument (if it was ever much of an argument) is for the most part degenerating into a pissing contest on both message boards, so...

Hey Ross,

What about using the kb for weight for distance/height? I was doing this last summer at the beach and my kb seemed to be moving plenty fast. I agree on the limits of limit strength training point - pretty much any fixed weight object has this though (if you only have 100 lbs of plates for your bb for example..)

[Grandpa's Spells]

Gotcha. So, just to be clear, do you agree or disagree that KB balistic lifts do not train explosiveness? That is what Bill and others take exception to.

If explosiveness is speed-strength, then I definitely agree.

KBs are neither heavy enough to deliver limit strength nor fast enough to deliver speed. Was there ever any doubt about this?

HAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!

I actually thought, "I don't need to tell him to focus on the fact that it's line of movement, not load, for the fifth time."

[szczepan]

I'm just putting the relevant material in this thread so everyone can see exactly what it says for itself.

Gotcha, I did that weeks ago. Sometimes I make the mistake of assuming that everyone is up to speed. You are a PLer, correct ? It seems that you don't think the claim is as big a deal as I do. Why or why not ?

[Shafpocalypse Now]

I've seen at least 2 165-180 lb guys post low to mid- fives numbers. Those are big numbers for lighter guys.

Not a lot of competitive PLs will use CF exclusively for training, if any. For a few weeks, maybe as GPP/conditioning/change of pace, but not exclusively.

[Batboy2/75]

I've seen at least 2 165-180 lb guys post low to mid- fives numbers. Those are big numbers for lighter guys.

Not a lot of competitive PLs will use CF exclusively for training, if any. For a few weeks, maybe as GPP/conditioning/change of pace, but not exclusively.

This is his claim:

"We can take you from a 200 pound max deadlift to a 500-750 pound max deadlift in two years while only pulling max singles four or five times a year. We will though work the deadlift, like most lifts, approximately once per week at higher reps and under grueling conditions."

All I'm asking for is proof. It's not too hard to document this shit.

Show me the guys/gals that have followed the CF work out of the day for 2 years and done this. If he can't, then he shouldn't be making such claims. He can say it's his "theory", but he's a dumb ass for stating this as fact with nothing to back it up.

BB2/75

[bill fox]

I just posted this to the thread at CF. I just thought it needed to be pointed out and what not:

"I was going to stay clear and I will not comment on any insult, irony or whatnot brought up here, all's fair and I'm a big boy. Those morbidly interested can always go "elsewhere" to check on that kind of thing.

I just wanted to raise this. There has been alot made of the order of insults. "Kicked a pit bull and complained when it kicked back" and so on.

Wouldn't it be fair to say by adding the comment "though fans of the kettlebell claim otherwise" Coach's post went beyond commenting on lines of force and commented on a group of people. Or more succinctly, wasn't it simply a cute veiled FU to the "fans of the kettlebell". Of course it was. So let's not get bogged down in the Miss Manners defense.

To the credit of some of the more senior members of CF, who have actually addressed what I asked, I haven't seen anything supporting the 1/7 post. The loading limitation is of course valid, but not to the point, since the post doesn't talk about loading.

I should note the SIG "I'm off to stir some shit has somehow been added to my postings and is not my idea, although i kind of like it."

60 hits so far and counting.....

[Ross Hunt]

offroad,

Throwing a KB sounds like fun, if that's what you're talking about. If I owned my own, I'd do it...

STROY!!!!!!!!,

"This relatively low powered line of action" is the quote. Power is

mass x distance
--------------------
time

Point is: KB swing/ KB snatch traces a greater distance than the oly equivalent, but does so in a way that precludes doing so in a small period of time or with a large amount of weight; the distance increase is not worth the mass decrease and time increase with regard to power.

Limit strength, speed-strength, and CrossFit -

Robb Wolf, Mike Rutherford, and Mike Burgener all seem to be working towards doing CrossFit with an emphasis on limit strength or speed. An endeavor worth watching. I am doing some of this now myself.

[Fat Cat]

EDIT: THIS IS JUST A JOKE IN POOR TASTE NO ONE SHOULD TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY OR USE LAWYERS OR PROSECUTORS TO HASSLE MEMBERS OF THIS BOARD. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH TAKE IT UP WITH ME BECAUSE NO ONE ELSE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY WORDS.

[stosh]

Make sure you use a relatively low powered line of action.

[szczepan]

Ross, how long have you been CFing ? How much can you DL ? Is it greater than or less than 700lbs ?

TIA,

Steve

[Grandpa's Spells]

Robb Wolf, Mike Rutherford, and Mike Burgener all seem to be working towards doing CrossFit with an emphasis on limit strength or speed. An endeavor worth watching.

I agree.

[Grandpa's Spells]

I think I could contribute to this discussion by....

That wasn't cool.

OTOH, I think we just saw the last IG-to-CF cross post...