IGX

Jack, did you read Boyle's last article on T-nation? As an actual S&C coach, I thought he was pretty rational. Not only does he not use anything remotely like X-fit, his priorities actually exclude the possibility of training like X-fitters say they do.

He took a lot of crap for it there, but when a professional says his #1 goal is a healthy, uninjured, ready to play team, and that struggling for one more rep and pushing the envelope in the weight room is a bad idea for an athlete, I think one should pay attention. It makes repping till you puke look like misplaced machismo.

Boyle is a smart man. Best of all, he's not afraid to buck the conventional standards of wisdom and do shit his way, according to what he's learned through trial and error and education.

At the H.S. level, football skills and SPEED are King. Our local H.S. has a great feeder program from Rinks, Ponies. Jr. HS on up, and have been district champs and state semi's qualifiers several times. We've beaten bigger and stronger teams regularly. Cases in point, we beat Jon Witman's(Steeler) huge team and Ricky Watter's team two diff. years we were district champs. Ricky had the speed and Jon the strength, but overall our f.b. skills and overall team speed won out. Good football at the H.S. level is probably my favorite sport.

I understand what you are saying here, but there is a whole lot of development that goes on physically between the ages of 14 and 18. A lot of college players aren't really developed until they are juniors or seniors.

I think the speed advantage can be reduced by training the positions. Almost all breaks are due to a player misjudgement, from Pop Warner to the professional ranks. You are completely correct about football skills being important. Skill and speed development need to go hand in hand with improving physical strength and stamina (as well as injury prevention)

The best teams do more than one thing right. I think the best coaches could still make a good player out of a unpromising freshman. A lot of talent goes to waste because the kid wasn't developed enough to express it. A lot of talent goes to waste because stupid training practices injure a player and they miss that critical window of being noticed.

High school football is one of the last expressions of pure, American sport. College football is getting more and more like a professional league every year. Basketball is already fucked.

Schlegel wrote:Jack, did you read Boyle's last article on T-nation? As an actual S&C coach, I thought he was pretty rational. Not only does he not use anything remotely like X-fit, his priorities actually exclude the possibility of training like X-fitters say they do.

He took a lot of crap for it there, but when a professional says his #1 goal is a healthy, uninjured, ready to play team, and that struggling for one more rep and pushing the envelope in the weight room is a bad idea for an athlete, I think one should pay attention. It makes repping till you puke look like misplaced machismo.

I really enjoyed Boyle's article, but take issue with the idea that it is xfit incompatible. He has these two sentences back to back which covers the diffs and similarities...

I'll tell you when I want my guys to "lay it on the line." I want them to lay it on the line every set with perfect technique and stop when their technique fails. I also want them to go all out during our conditioning sessions.

Shaf wrote: High school football is one of the last expressions of pure, American sport. College football is getting more and more like a professional league every year. Basketball is already fucked.

Your basketball comment is dead on. I recently heard that there are Mel Kiper types who grade 10 year olds as to their future success for Div. I college basketball. They catalog these kids and sell the info. to recruiters.

nafod wrote: I really enjoyed Boyle's article, but take issue with the idea that it is xfit incompatible. He has these two sentences back to back which covers the diffs and similarities...

I'll tell you when I want my guys to "lay it on the line." I want them to lay it on the line every set with perfect technique and stop when their technique fails. I also want them to go all out during our conditioning sessions.

Doesn't this imply that he's separating strength training and conditioning?
X-fit by design does not.

Schlegel wrote:

nafod wrote: I really enjoyed Boyle's article, but take issue with the idea that it is xfit incompatible. He has these two sentences back to back which covers the diffs and similarities...

I'll tell you when I want my guys to "lay it on the line." I want them to lay it on the line every set with perfect technique and stop when their technique fails. I also want them to go all out during our conditioning sessions.

Doesn't this imply that he's separating strength training and conditioning?
X-fit by design does not.

Exactly. When I do a x-fit workout I use it for conditioning. I don't see how it can be used for limit strength training.

Schlegel wrote: Doesn't this imply that he's separating strength training and conditioning?
X-fit by design does not.

Using the WOD as an example of a workout program following the xfit approach, in August, of the 21 WODs listed, 9 were strength workouts, i.e., no time component. That's probably on the high side for a month. The rest are conditioning workouts, i.e., they had a time component to them.

I wish Boyle had said what he does for conditioning. I'd be curious to see if he uses intervals such as Tabata.

Mickey O'neil wrote: Exactly. When I do a x-fit workout I use it for conditioning. I don't see how it can be used for limit strength training.

Last month one of the WODs was to do 7 sets of weighted pullups shooting for the 2RM. That was not a conditioning workout, and in fact was in common with Boyle's approach, where he emphasizes the pulling muscles to be in balance with the pushing and advocates for weighted pullups and rows in a strength program.

Re: conditioning.
As he works with hockey players, I would venture that conditioning involves skating.

nafod wrote:

Mickey O'neil wrote: Exactly. When I do a x-fit workout I use it for conditioning. I don't see how it can be used for limit strength training.

Last month one of the WODs was to do 7 sets of weighted pullups shooting for the 2RM. That was not a conditioning workout, and in fact was in common with Boyle's approach, where he emphasizes the pulling muscles to be in balance with the pushing and advocates for weighted pullups and rows in a strength program.

That is a very nice workout but they are too spaced out. I do weighted pullups at least 3x a week. Coach Rut's approach seems way more balanced.

Schlegel wrote:Jack, did you read Boyle's last article on T-nation? As an actual S&C coach, I thought he was pretty rational. Not only does he not use anything remotely like X-fit, his priorities actually exclude the possibility of training like X-fitters say they do.

He took a lot of crap for it there, but when a professional says his #1 goal is a healthy, uninjured, ready to play team, and that struggling for one more rep and pushing the envelope in the weight room is a bad idea for an athlete, I think one should pay attention. It makes repping till you puke look like misplaced machismo.

Yeah, i am lukewarm on Boyle. Big difference between pro athletes and HS and college kids. Even big differences in Men and women(not my point but women are easy to coach but not as competitive with each other.) HS kids need time on skills and both strength, speed, and hypertrophy development. Pros need to prevent injury via prehab, rehab what they already hurt, and maintain strength and mobility as long as possible. In all places, working to failure on lifts is stupid for lots of known reasons. The goal on conditioning is to allow athletes to maintain 90-100% effort as much as possible, nto teaching them to slog through at 60%.

Issues with Boyle:
-Only HITITEs talk about safety
-Front squat is no better or safer than back, wide stance, or SSB squat.
-Pro Hockey has some of the least strength trained atheltes. That sport is about endurance to skate your shift and skills.

But as Jim Wendler says, great to listen to folks you don't agree with so you might learn a thing or two. i do like the one limb work a lot.

jmo
jack

It just seems that a front squat transfers force through fewer muscle groups. An athlete who has back issues could do belt squats,....a volume of them.

Lunges are under rated in my opinion. Pavel says they tighten hipflexors, but I disagree. They expose rt to left stength differences.

--Tom

Agree with you on Boyle Jack. I attended a clinic he spoke at and had very mixed feelings. Some stuff I liked, some I didn't. Another on the list of dislikes is that Boyle is a firm believer in "drawing-in" and he used the terms "Transverse Abdominus" and "multifidus" quite a bit. Claims you cannot truely brace the abs without drawing in and that proponents of "bracing" who do not believe in "drawing-in" do not know what they're talking about. Never trust a man who can use TVA and multifidus in the same sentance....

Oh yeah, one other complaint, he wore shiny grey skin-tight running pants, NOT cool on a dude whose leg's you could floss with. The man needs a few ribeyes and a gallon of milk and some, gasp, back squats.

scott

TomFurman wrote:It just seems that a front squat transfers force through fewer muscle groups. An athlete who has back issues could do belt squats,....a volume of them.

Tom, I think Boyle made a comment that he likes Louie's belt squat machine a lot for his athletes. Maybe not in the article, but I think he mentioned it somewhere in the onslaught of a replies that followed his article.

scott

I've seen single-leg leg work get pooh-poohed before, but my current bulgarian split squat experiment has shown me that my right leg really needed it. I took that to heart from your article first, Boyle reinforced it, and I think it will really pay off when I go back to full squats, which I will when the two sides feel more the same.

TomFurman wrote:Lunges are under rated in my opinion. Pavel says they tighten hipflexors, but I disagree. They expose rt to left stength differences.

I went to a teleconference that had Yuri Verkoshansky speaking. His opinion was rt/lt strength imbalances are irrelevant except in extreme cases related to injury.

Grandpa's Spells wrote: I went to a teleconference that had Yuri Verkoshansky speaking. His opinion was rt/lt strength imbalances are irrelevant except in extreme cases related to injury.

I don't know how you'd define extreme, but difference between my leg's stability has been noticeable enough to affect my sparring style. To me, that makes it worth fixing even if it were to have no effect on my top squat. To be fair to Verkoshansky, I think it is because of an old injury to the hip flexors.

http://www.michaelboyle.biz/forum/index.php

Fucking fags. There's boyle's forum. He's on it every day. Some good conversations. There were even more good one's lost because his board admin doesn't know how to archive and set the purge at 7 days or something.

Where's the subforum where Michael Boyle discusses Michael Boyle's Stool Samples?

His forum reminds me of the "Maestro" Seinfeld episode where George starts using the 3rd person.

"George is getting angry!"

powerlifter54 wrote:

Schlegel wrote:
-Front squat is no better or safer than back, wide stance, or SSB squat.

I wondered about this, myself. I'm not very strong, but I find that at loads that are high for me, it's much more tempting to break front squat technique (let the upper back round) than it is to break back squat technique (let the lower back round). I can back squat with tired traps; front squatting heavy with tired traps seems to be a no-go.

bump from another string with the worst program poll

@fit gets my vote. It would be a decent program if it's stated goal was to make you capable of whatever the cult leader wanted on any given day.

Maybe couch should market to the Krishna dudes?

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

I really want to see you
Really want to pukey with you
Really want to splatter you Greg
But it tastes so bad, short Greg

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

I really want to know you
Really want to WOD with you
Really want to show you Greg
That it wont take long, my Greg (hallelujah)

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

I really want to see you
Really want to see you
Really want to see you, Greg
Really want to see you, Greg
But it takes so long, fat Greg

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

I really want to know you (hallelujah)
Really want to WODwith you (hallelujah)
Really want to show you Greg (aaah)
That it wont take long, my Greg (hallelujah)

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

Hm, my lord (Glassman, Glassman)
My, my, my lord (Glassman, Glassman)
Oh hm, my sweet lord (Glassman, Glassman)
Oh-uuh-uh ( insert puking noise here)

Now, I really want to see you (hare rama)
Really want to DL 750 with you (hare rama)
Really want to see you Greg (aaah)
But it just to heavy, oh Gregg? (hallelujah)

Hm, my Greg (hallelujah)
My, my, my Glassman (hare krishna)
My sweet Greg (hare krishna)
My sweet Glassmanlord (krishna krishna)
My Greg (hare hare)
Hm, hm (gurur brahma)
Hm, hm (gurur vishnu)
Hm, hm (gurur devo)
Hm, hm (maheshwara)
My sweet Greg (gurur sakshaat)
My sweet Glassman (parabrahma)
My, my, my Greg (tasmayi shree)
My, my, my, my Glassmanlord (guruve namah)
My sweet Greg (hare rama)

[fade:]

My sweet Greg
Hm, my Greg
Hm, my Greg

Hey, i am injured, can't get it up, and can't DL 750 ???

ROFL!

That should take us to 50K shortly.

OK, who wants more Krossfit Koolaid, raise your hand!:

[img:250:167]http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/sho ... ars-th.jpg[/img]

Opening chant

vande gurunam charanaravinde
sandarsita svatmasukhava bodhe
nihsreyase jangalikayamane
samsara halahala mohasantyai

abahu purusakaram
sankhacakrasi dharinam
sahasra sirasam svetam
pranamami patanjalim

om

(Translation into English)

I bow to the lotus feet of the guru
who awakens insight into the happiness of pure Being,
who is the final refuge, the jungle physician,
who eliminates the delusion caused by the poisonous
herb of samsara [conditioned existence].

I prostrate before the sage Glassman
who has thousands of radiant, white heads
[in his form as the divine serpent, Ananta]
and who has, as far as his arms,
assumed the form of a man holding a conch shell [divine sound],
a wheel [discus of light, representing infinite time]
and a sword [discrimination].

om