Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... oyd-arrest

MINNEAPOLIS —

A lawyer for a former Minneapolis police officer charged in George Floyd’s death asked the judge again Tuesday to allow evidence of a previous arrest during which Floyd was found with drugs, a request the prosecutor derided as an attempt to “smear” Floyd’s character.

Defense attorney Eric Nelson said that Floyd’s May 2019 arrest — a year before his fatal encounter with officer Derek Chauvin — was remarkably similar: He ignored officers’ commands, put something in his mouth, and had to be physically removed from a vehicle. In that arrest, several opioid pills were found, along with cocaine.

But prosecutor Matthew Frank argued that evidence was prejudicial and suggested the defense wanted to admit it as a backdoor way of depicting Floyd as a bad person.

Hennepin County Judge Peter Cahill previously rejected Chauvin’s attempt to tell the jury about the 2019 arrest but heard fresh arguments Tuesday from both sides.

Allowing testimony about the arrest would be a victory for the defense, which plans to argue that Floyd’s drug use contributed to his death. An autopsy showed Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system. Cahill said he would rule on the request Wednesday morning at the earliest....

Both times, as officers drew their guns and struggled to get Floyd out of the car, he called out for his mother, claiming he had been shot before and crying, and he put what appeared to be a controlled substance in his mouth. Both searches turned up drugs in the cars. Officers noticed a white residue outside his mouth both times, although that has not been explained.

“The similarities are incredible. The exact same behavior in two incidents, almost one year apart,” Nelson said.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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I's the first time I looked at this footage. Three policemen on top of a handcuffed dude with his hands behind the back. What threat did he supposedly pose to them?

Chauvin's lawyers will do their hardest to argue the manslaughter. I reckon murder charge is completely reasonable.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Sangoma wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:01 am

I's the first time I looked at this footage. Three policemen on top of a handcuffed dude with his hands behind the back. What threat did he supposedly pose to them?

Chauvin's lawyers will do their hardest to argue the manslaughter. I reckon murder charge is completely reasonable.
WTF is this sissy shit?
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:01 am “The similarities are incredible. The exact same behavior in two incidents, almost one year apart,” Nelson said.
He died twice?
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Not impossible for a Fentanyl junkie.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:01 am
Allowing testimony about the arrest would be a victory for the defense, which plans to argue that Floyd’s drug use contributed to his death. An autopsy showed Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system.

“The similarities are incredible. The exact same behavior in two incidents, almost one year apart,” Nelson said.
The question is: if you do the same thing - knee on the neck and torso, handcuffs behind the back, face down - would it possibly cause death of a person who is not under the influence of drugs. That's one. Two - drugs or not, the force seems excessive regardless. Three, was the previous arrest done by the same officers?
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:06 pm Not impossible for a Fentanyl junkie.
Ok I lol’d at that
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Sangoma wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:58 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:01 am
Allowing testimony about the arrest would be a victory for the defense, which plans to argue that Floyd’s drug use contributed to his death. An autopsy showed Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system.

“The similarities are incredible. The exact same behavior in two incidents, almost one year apart,” Nelson said.
The question is: if you do the same thing - knee on the neck and torso, handcuffs behind the back, face down - would it possibly cause death of a person who is not under the influence of drugs. That's one. Two - drugs or not, the force seems excessive regardless. Three, was the previous arrest done by the same officers?
You don't need any of that to demonstrate that he had a history of resisting arrest, destruction of evidence, and feigning medical distress.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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I think you do. If I ignore a complaint of a patient and it results in a bad outcome I am liable irrespective of the patient's history of feigning the symptoms in the past with other doctors. Even if it happened previously on my watch it is a very weak mitigating factor.

So if the arresting officers knew about Floyd's history of resisting arrest it would justify, sort of, some of their actions. If not their overuse of force and ignoring his pleas are unjustified.

Seriously, how hard is it to hold down someone handcuffed behind the back? You could probably do it with one hand. The way his head was turned under load I would also be concerned about the neck injury. It's just looks so unnecessary.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 am I think you do. If I ignore a complaint of a patient and it results in a bad outcome I am liable irrespective of the patient's history of feigning the symptoms in the past with other doctors. Even if it happened previously on my watch it is a very weak mitigating factor.
You're a "doctor," or erstwhile Soviet equivalent; your primary responsibility is to provide medical care. He's a police officer and his primary duty is to keep the peace, which he was doing, using an approved technique. I want to be clear, I am not defending Chauvin, but I am not at all convinced that the evidence against him should lead to a conviction.

Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 am So if the arresting officers knew about Floyd's history of resisting arrest it would justify, sort of, some of their actions. If not their overuse of force and ignoring his pleas are unjustified.
To be honest I do not know if the arresting officers were aware of his pattern of claiming medical distress. I don't think that was made clear.
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 amSeriously, how hard is it to hold down someone handcuffed behind the back? You could probably do it with one hand. The way his head was turned under load I would also be concerned about the neck injury. It's just looks so unnecessary.
It's not hard, you just kneel on them. :finga: Let's not pretend like one less Floyd is any loss to anyone. He was worth waaaay more dead.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 am So if the arresting officers knew about Floyd's history of resisting arrest it would justify, sort of, some of their actions. If not their overuse of force and ignoring his pleas are unjustified.
You have a very large, muscular man talking crazy and resisting arrest. Two or three cops weren't able to contain him in the squad car.
Academically, how much force should they have used? Just enough.
How do you know what's just enough? You can't, so you use your experience from multiple past arrests...probably using as much force as your worst arrest when dealing with a resisting giant of a man.

As to "ignoring his pleas." What a joke. The man was gibbering nonsense from the moment police contacted him. Have you seen the police body cam footage?
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:58 am Seriously, how hard is it to hold down someone handcuffed behind the back? You could probably do it with one hand. The way his head was turned under load I would also be concerned about the neck injury. It's just looks so unnecessary.
It does look bad. My biggest concern wasn't with Chauvin but with the officer on Floyd's back. THAT could have caused asphyxia, IMO.

But also consider: what if Chauvin had gotten to his feet? What would likely happen when they took him back to the ground? Head, meet pavement.
Solution: don't let him up.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Johno, I think it is the combination of factors that caused the asphyxia. Awkward position, hands cuffed behind the back, weight on the chest, weight on the neck, anxiety (possibly reinforced by the meth).

Fatso, I will be the first to say that the job of the police is very hard. However, once someone undertakes to be a policeman he has the responsibility to do it properly, which implies tge responsibility for offenders in their custody. At the end of the day Floyd died for a forged 20 dollar bill, directly as the result of the police action. Ultimately it is for the court to decide what happened, and I am just expressing my amateurish opinion, obviously subjective. However, from what I can see I would not be surprised if the murder charge is upheld.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:22 pm Johno, I think it is the combination of factors that caused the asphyxia. Awkward position, hands cuffed behind the back, weight on the chest, weight on the neck, anxiety (possibly reinforced by the meth).
You forgot the lethal dose of Fentanyl.
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:22 pm Fatso, I will be the first to say that the job of the police is very hard. However, once someone undertakes to be a policeman he has the responsibility to do it properly, which implies tge responsibility for offenders in their custody. At the end of the day Floyd died for a forged 20 dollar bill, directly as the result of the police action. Ultimately it is for the court to decide what happened, and I am just expressing my amateurish opinion, obviously subjective.
Being an effective police officer is very hard and it requires a certain amount of latitude to adjust to circumstances, but does also come with a responsibility for the safety of detained persons. I agree there. But Floyd didn't die because of a fake $20. He died because he ingested a lethal cocktail of narcotics and resisted arrest. Those are the plain facts.
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:22 pm However, from what I can see I would not be surprised if the murder charge is upheld.
Me neither. I think this can go either way.
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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To convict for any level of murder, the jury must find that Chauvin caused Floyd's death beyond a reasonable doubt.
That means excluding heart disease aggravated by resisting, fentanyl overdose, and excited delirium beyond reasonable doubt.

From what I've seen so far, that can't be proven. That I think he may be convicted reflects my lack of faith in the jury system in this case.
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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It will come to this: if we take an average person of similar build and subject him to the same treatment, is it likely to cause death? It is impossible to "prove" it beyond reasonable doubt. Just like it was impossible to prove that Pistorius intentionally shot his girlfriend. So it depends on what degree of probability the court is willing to accept. There are lots of technicalities that will probably decide the case.
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats

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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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johno wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:05 am To convict for any level of murder, the jury must find that Chauvin caused Floyd's death beyond a reasonable doubt.
That means excluding heart disease aggravated by resisting, fentanyl overdose, and excited delirium beyond reasonable doubt.

From what I've seen so far, that can't be proven. That I think he may be convicted reflects my lack of faith in the jury system in this case.
That's why I was surprised at going for a jury trial. To me, that's a nuance best left to a trained judge.
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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I wonder if he is protected from civil liability? Maybe the settlement with the city also settled any further suits against the officers personally? I would think so.

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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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newguy wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:30 pm I wonder if he is protected from civil liability? Maybe the settlement with the city also settled any further suits against the officers personally? I would think so.
Obviously not a lawyer, but I would assume that he is covered provided he was lawfully discharging his duties. However, if he is convicted of a crime, then that would diminish or eliminate the protection, and he could be held liable in civil court. Not sure about that, though.
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Re: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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johno wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:53 pm firefighters attacking a fire in the basement by entering at the first floor
Just curious....assuming there is not a walk out basement, how did firefighters on your job get water on a basement fire, and how many basement fires did you successfully extinguish using this method?

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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Arguments started today!
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Guilty on all three.

2nd Degree, 3rd, and Manslaughter.

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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Wow.

I remember when the Rodney King verdict was announced, and I was so shocked and outraged I took my shoe off and flung it at the TV (I was in junior high). When the riots started, I wasn't surprised.

Right now, I'm shocked again, but have a sense of peace this time around. And if riots start this time, I will be surprised.

In both cases, we watched spectator footage and formed our opinions. Both seemed damning. Hmm, maybe justice in America has made a turn.
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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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Guilty. ALL counts.

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Re: Biden's America: How Hard Will They Chimp?

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I didn't watch much, but the bits and pieces I did see, to my uneducated eye it seemed like the prosecution did a good job and his defense didn't. It may be no one wanted to go on the stand and defend him or his actions and they had to scrape the bottom of the barrel for expert testimony.

I mean, you couldn't even get him cleared of 2nd degree murder? That's crazy.

Don't get me wrong. I think the asshole is guilty in the moral court. But the laws are very favorable to cops on duty. Or at least they were.

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