No fuckin' thank you to sending US troops to Ukraine

[Gene]

Dux you need to ban @ now or it needs to apologize. This kind of pron has no place here.

We came, we saw, he died.

Hillary's great Neo-Con moment.

wecame.jpg (15.57 KiB) Viewed 1583 times

To her credit, she was not involved in the 2014 Maidan fiasco.

I'm guessing here, but I think this twelve second peek into Hillary's soul cost her a lot of votes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXDU48RHLU

[Grandpa's Spells]

Big Putin speech and Red Square rally talking Holy War against the West.

Recap here: https://konstantinkisin.substack.com/p/ ... n-hegemony

Russia's retreat from Lyman has been a slaughter. Ukrainians worried about the trauma of killing so many Russians.
https://ukrainevolunteer297689472.wordp ... slaughter/

[Shafpocalypse Now]

The reason for the wholesale support for sending billions to Ukraine is simple.

It's money.

Money paid for the media to tell people how to think.
Taxpayer money is continuing to make the military industrial complex rich.
MIC puts some back to politicians, the gravy train keeps flowing.

It's just one more way to extort money from the poor.

[motherjuggs&speed]

That's all true and I think it's worse than that even. Russia has just launched cruise missile strikes and one Russian commander said they could have taken Kiev quickly had the missile strikes been done early on. So why wasn't that done? Maybe Russia wanted a longer war to keep the price of oil high. It also seems to me that the West is giving Ukraine enough help to keep them in the fight but not enough to win quickly or decisively. I think this whole war is an economic and political scam. None of the people running it care about real people dying, and that includes the average Russian. They didn't care about the war until they saw themselves getting sucked in.

I don't think this war is really that different from most of the wars the major powers have engaged in for the last 100 years at least. I think the oligarchs want not only more money and power but they like inflicting the suffering that these wars cause.

I think the fascination people have with this war can be summed up with two ideas:

1) People care about what they're told to care about, and
2) War porn. People want to read about massacres and watch people and things getting blown up.

[nafod]

Russia, and by Russia I mean Putin, invaded Ukraine with their special military operation thinking it be just like the good old days for the Soviet Union. They miscalculated.

Fuck those guys. I am unwilling to look the other way while they steamroll a fellow democracy. I will gladly support Ukraine. A world with a weakened Russia is a better world.

[motherjuggs&speed]

I have no sympathy for Russia but China is also a nogoodnik and gets almost no criticism, let alone sanctions like we see Russia getting.

[nafod]

I have no sympathy for Russia but China is also a nogoodnik and gets almost no criticism, let alone sanctions like we see Russia getting.

No Russian goods in Walmart, but lots of Chinese.

[Gene]

That's all true and I think it's worse than that even. Russia has just launched cruise missile strikes and one Russian commander said they could have taken Kiev quickly had the missile strikes been done early on. So why wasn't that done?

Just a guess....

Putin has bent over backwards to minimize Ukrainian civilian casualties. The ongoing narrative is that Russia views the Ukrainians as fellow Slavs who were done dirty by the Anglosphere and EU.

It's not a hard sell. The Georgian invasion of 2008 showed that NATO was prompting dumbasses to do dumbass things to Russia. After getting spun up by NATO and Israel Georgian President Mikhael Shakaashvili started a war over S. Ossetia and Abkhasia. An EU commission proved that he started it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-geor ... MO20090930

Shakaashivili moved to Ukraine, set up shop in Odessa. The Ukrainians deported him.

If the Russians were to start a Chechnya style of all out war they would alienate Ukrainians. What happened in Grozny and other places was insane. This is why they've been holding back.

The Ukrainians took the promises from Washington, London and Brussels at face value. They expected to get as much help as needed. Zelenski has begged for jet fighters, tanks and big NATO weapons... he gets stingy amounts of weapons.

[Gene]

It also seems to me that the West is giving Ukraine enough help to keep them in the fight but not enough to win quickly or decisively.

We Americans don't want Ukraine to win. We want short term profits for the Military Industrial Complex.

Look again at what we did to the Georgian Republic. Spun them up, then let them down.

[nafod]

It's not a hard sell.

Then why aren’t the Ukrainians buying?

The atrocities committed by the Russians aren’t helping with their marketing campaign either. Stupid.

The Ukrainian fighters refer to the Russians as orcs. Fitting.

[Gene]

It's not a hard sell.

Then why aren’t the Ukrainians buying?

Who said that they're not? The Kyiv clique has had to impose Martial Law on men from voting with their feet to avoid the draft.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/15/uk ... an-rights/



If the State has to nail down cannon fodder, this suggests that they're not too confident.

Such are the beginnings of peace under Russian hegemony. A multipolar world. We in the US have thirty one trillion reasons why this is a good idea.

The atrocities committed by the Russians aren’t helping with their marketing campaign either. Stupid.

Gee, we wanted war.... now we whine about it?

Where have you been between 2014 and 2022, Nafod?

Here's Obama's pet Ukrainian, Petro Poroshenko. Keeping children in cellars. He was put there by Obama, Biden and Victoria Nuland. Exactly how long were those people going to put up with this shit?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk

Who knows who is lying about atrocities, especially with Avoz people on one side and Chechens on the other? Both sides are deploying people with proven bad behavior. It's war, not a football game.

The Ukrainian fighters refer to the Russians as orcs. Fitting.

I did a quick search under <<орк русски солдати>> I saw toy advertisements. This term is more Neo-Con pablum, to spoon feed the baby war mongers. Rub their tummies. Make them pay higher taxes to the Military Industrial Complex.

[Gene]

Tulsi Gabbard is right - the Democratic Party has become a gang of war mongering elitists. Gabbard was the Party's golden girl until she spoke up against war mongers.

South Asian, young, pretty. Can't be dissing Wall Street..... What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.


We're tired of war. Tired of taking care of broken young men and women. Tired of paying too much for energy.

[Ronald RayGun]

Still have yet to meet a single person who has brought up this nonsense in Whitetrashistan. Here's my thing. The major metropolitan city I grew up in had a decent sized Russian/Ukrainian community. I don't see them as different. Here's why. Out of ALL of the races that made up major metro city, only the Rusks/Ukrs thought they were above getting with the rest of the community. They proved to me time and time again since I was a child that they were both much closer in culture to the goat fucking Afghans than any proper American of ANY race. Fuck both sides of this war (even us for being in it). I really don't give a wet shit what happens to people who think and act like they do. May sound cold, but I really, truly don't care.

[nafod]

war mongering elitists

We are out of Afghanistan. E are not in Ukraine.

[Grandpa's Spells]

Tulsi Gabbard is right - the Democratic Party has become a gang of war mongering elitists. Gabbard was the Party's golden girl until she spoke up against war mongers.

I'm not saying she's a Russian asset, but the Russians call her a Russian asset on state television.

[Gene]

war mongering elitists

We are out of Afghanistan. We are not in Ukraine.

This is Petro Poroshenko, talking about how he would "win the war". He would terrorize Donbass children so that they had to remain in shelters. He would cut off pensions to the elderly. He would deny workers work. This was in 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHWHqj8g7Bk

Eight years later, as the Russians were moving in, Biden pulled us out. We are cowardly war mongers who let others fight our battles for us. If we feared a war with Russia why did we start one in Ukraine, like we started one in Georgia in 2008?

"Let's you and him fight" is war mongering too.

[Gene]

Tulsi Gabbard is right - the Democratic Party has become a gang of war mongering elitists. Gabbard was the Party's golden girl until she spoke up against war mongers.

I'm not saying she's a Russian asset, but the Russians call her a Russian asset on state television.

Hillary said as much. Why not everyone else?

[nafod]

why did we start one in Ukraine

Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine didn’t invade Russia, and neither did we.

Gene, the contorting and cherry picking of facts that you go through to justify your positions…

Russia invaded Ukraine, full stop. Fuck those guys.

[Gene]

why did we start one in Ukraine

Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine didn’t invade Russia, and neither did we.

Gene, the contorting and cherry picking of facts that you go through to justify your positions…

Russia invaded Ukraine, full stop. Fuck those guys.

The Russians did conduct a hybrid war in Donbass. What does that have to do with the United States?

Ukraine is on the other side of the world. We have few commercial ties with them. Very few Americans are of Ukrainian ancestry. Ukraine is not in NATO. They're not even a candidate member like Finland or Sweden.

You've spent a lot of time appealing to rule of law, Nafod. You have with many topics. So, where is the legal basis for our intervention in Ukraine?

Let's look at treaties....

The US Senate never ratified the Budapest Memorandum. In the absence of treaty ratification, Nafod, we have no legal obligation to adhere to the Budapest Memorandum.

As far as I can find the US and Ukraine have treaties to cooperate in criminal apprehension and investment.

https://www.congress.gov/treaty-documen ... ument-text

We have normal trade relations.

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-ukraine/

Halt Russian expansion? Done. Everyone on the Western border of Ukraine except Moldova is in NATO or on track to be in NATO. We don't need to "stop Russia" to defend Europe. Article 5 of the NATO treaty is still in force.

So.... where's the legal reason to defend Ukraine?

[nafod]

We haven’t intervened there. No troops on the ground, no planes in Ukrainian airspace. Just helping out an emergent democracy struggling to survive in a cruel part of the globe. No war declared.

We help them less than they would like to be helped, that’s for sure.

We are getting dollars of foreign affairs impact for the pennies we provide them. Best deal ever. Smart move.

[Gene]

We haven’t intervened there. No troops on the ground, no planes in Ukrainian airspace.

US units have operated in Ukraine in a formal capacity, to train and to build up the Ukrainian military. As is the case with our stingy supply of weapons, we do just enough to annoy and distress the Russians, not enough to help the Ukrainians win.

https://www.army.mil/article/146549/173 ... s_guardian

https://news.usni.org/2017/08/15/u-s-na ... -sea-coast

The US and Ukraine ran three training centers in Ukraine.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2017 ... st/141577/

In Feb of 2022 the Pentagon ordered US forces out of Ukraine. One would presume that this order applies to troops on the ground in Ukraine.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/12/pentago ... raine.html


You don't admit to the idea of a "proxy war" though you were personally involved in one. Iran was sponsoring some of the people who were trying to kill you in Iraq. I take it that you accepted "training" from "experts" in the use of your M4 because you saw a possible need to use it?

Did Iran's proxy war against the US in Iraq seem unwarlike to you? Should Iran have declared war on the US to make it seem more realistic?

Trinquier's book 'Modern war' describes this pretty well.

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/ ... rn_Warfare


Trinquier describes not just counter insurgency but how proxy wars are fought.

[Gene]

We are getting dollars of foreign affairs impact for the pennies we provide them. Best deal ever. Smart move.

We are paying much more than direct costs of weapons and training.

Let's use the concept of Expected Loss, with round numbers.

Assume that a limited nuclear exchange would cost the US $100,000,000,000,000 in direct losses on a first strike. Five years of US GDP is pretty reasonable for the loss of two or three big cities.

Just inventory, buildings, roads, bridges and such. No insurance payouts for "act of war" but someone has to make good on the losses.

1/10,000 risk of a nuclear exchange per year.

$1x10^14 dollars x 1/10,000 risk of a limited nuke strike per year = $10,000,000,000 per year of "infrastructure" Expected Losses. As long as we're have been over there, which is 2014, we are talking a total of $80,000,000,000 expected loss in total.

This ain't "cheap" Nafod.

We have not declared war.

The US has not declared war since 1945, Nafod.

We have had token numbers of troops on the ground in Ukraine since 2014. All west of Kyiv.



We put a battery in Kyiv's backpack. We wound Kyiv up. We gave them false promises of aid. Now the Russians are stomping all over them.

Would Ukraine have been dominated by Russia?

Is Mexico dominated by the US?

[Gene]

Gene, the contorting and cherry picking of facts that you go through to justify your positions…

We are quite the pair, aren't we Nafod?

Me with my economic motivation thinking, my "looneytarian" bias, my wish for a sober foreign policy. My recognition of the reality of a multipolar world. My desire for we Americans to return to to what really made this nation great....

1. Let's make a deal.
2. Live and let live.

We were once a great people. We were ugly too. Chasing the Anglo-Saxon ideal, never considering that many kinds of people made us great, not just one little tribe in the UK. Being humble enough to learn this message does not require embracing socialism.


You with your resonance with the Corporate Message, your schoolmarm's love of repetition. Your wish to remain within the herd of Progressive thought. Being cast out of the herd being the equivalent of abandonment. Progressives fear to be persuaded because they would be ostracized.

Your tedious method of condescension and virtue signalling, enlightening the masses here at Irongarm. Ensuring that you are heard.


I agree with many here. What we say does not really matter.

[motherjuggs&speed]

I was getting most of my war porn from the Telegraph until I realized how globalist they are. My point being that we have to look at who is feeding us what narrative. Who benefits from sending Ukraine aid? And why is there so little debate, so little oversight, and so little transparency about what's being provided?

"One can question whether all this money needs to come through a supplemental appropriation, which gets less review than regular appropriations. For example, there has not been a single hearing on this package, unlike the usual DOD authorization and appropriations processes, which have multiple hearings and extensive discussions. Long-term items might reasonably be left to the regular cycle.

Further, the large amount of money being provided might require more oversight than existing structures can provide. Congress and the administration, to their credit, have included some in the package, but that may not be sufficient. A structure like the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR) might be appropriate."

oh, and

"The Ukrainian government, despite many admirable actions in the last few months, was notorious before the war for its corruption."

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-does ... kraine-buy

[Gene]

I was getting most of my war porn from the Telegraph until I realized how globalist they are.

I've been relying upon local sources, like Prava.ru and Pravda.ur. Both sides make up stuff. More inclined to trust people like Pat Lancaster and Russell Bentley. Russel is on VK.

My point being that we have to look at who is feeding us what narrative. Who benefits from sending Ukraine aid? And why is there so little debate, so little oversight, and so little transparency about what's being provided?

I figure everyone in this mess has an angle. I wouldn't accept anything at face value from anyone.

Who benefits? I figure whoever is hollering the loudest when the "aid" is threatened is who wants it the most, but I don't know who is making the big bucks.

I'm more concerned about US LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas) exports to Europe. These bid up the price of natural gas. Thanks to Obama's War on Coal a lot of US energy production moved to Natural Gas, which means that US electricity is going up too.

Biden keeps dithering on petroleum leases, so this creates pressure to raise up speculation on prices of oil.

2016 8,848
2017 9,359
2018 10,953
2019 12,315
2020 11,318
2021 11,254

(thousands of barrels per day - Source https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafH ... rfpus2&f=a

As the Congress and our Corporate whore President flood the economy with more government spending, it drives down the value of a Dollar. The Saudis were wise to tell us to take a hike at the latest OPEC meetings.

What is in it for oil producers to generate more oil for less valuable dollars?

oils.JPG (34.34 KiB) Viewed 1181 times

Source - https://ycharts.com/indicators/world_cr ... production