Giving, Taking, Matching

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Bram
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Post by Bram »

This is a concept taken from the Adam Grant book, Give and Take.

Givers = want to help others. "I help you."
Takers = do everything they can to get the most. "You help me."
Matchers = want to do everything fairly. "You help me, I help you."

He sez these are fluid, you might give to the church generously, but bargain aggressively for a used bike on Craigslist.

The main take-away was this:

The most, and least, successful people, in any field (medicine, engineering, etc.)...are the givers.

At the start, they lag behind, because they prioritize helping others at the expense of maybe enough sleep, or enough study time, or enough money.

Over time though, all that good will adds up and people they helped maybe years ago will try and support them.

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I was a textbook "taker" for years. This permeated nearly every aspect of life. And people get sick of takers. Surfing specifically created so much bad blood from me being a greedy motherfucker, that I was forced to change or quit (or fight people). So now, I'm a matcher. For say, the last 3-4 years.

But this still creates A LOT of bad blood, because the moment someone else starts being greedy, I can't notice anything but this. There are exceptions, but if we're surfing and you cut me off, I'm probably pissed for days (and I'm likely to yell at you, which doesn't help my state of mind).

So I am attempting to convert myself into being a giver. Part of me has a vague sense that maybe it'll be beneficial down the line (based on ol' Adam Grant), but the other part is tired of being furious. I think the dispersion of anger alone is a worthy enough cause, even if it means a bit of sacrifice.

Thoughts?
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee


motherjuggs&speed
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Post by motherjuggs&speed »

Just try to be less of an asshole and spare everyone (and yourself) the self indulgent fridge magnet philosophy. It's only going to make you phonier, take more energy, and not be sustainable anyway.

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Post by Sangoma »

There are better ideas in classic literature than in self-help books. It's not really surprising, as the classics stood the test of time, while self-help titles come and go on a monthly basis. Mind you the classics don't tell you "do this and don't do that", and you have to figure out many things for yourself. Which, in turn, serves the purpose of self-development.
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Post by Ronald RayGun »

I don't understand the level of over-thinking going on here. I'm a retard and even I know it's all basic bitch, do-unto-others bullshit. It's easy. It works. Don't think about it too much.
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Post by Fat Cat »

Ronald RayGun wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 6:32 am I don't understand the level of over-thinking going on here. I'm a retard and even I know it's all basic bitch, do-unto-others bullshit. It's easy. It works. Don't think about it too much.
Exactly. We're all, all of us, all three at varying times. Just be aware of what you're doing and match it to the circumstances.
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Post by Bram »

I was expecting more of a vituperative response.

But disinterest is good for enough for me!

----

On the reals though, it is a pretty interesting lens change -- life does seem to have many cross-roads where you can be nicer, or more selfish. But if you don't think about them, you'll stumble along doing biz as usual.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Sangoma »

My comment was more about the utility of self-help books (lack of it). It's fun to read the jackets of self-help books, all reviews given by a bunch of authors of other self-help books.

Coming back to the main question - I agree with others. The rules of social behavior have been set millennia ago. If you want something that fits a pocket card stick to the Golden Rule.

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Post by Bram »

All those are good credos to live by, but -- at least personally -- it's like the mind needs the correct "setting" to behave a certain way.

For those replying, do you say to yourself "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "be a friend to all" or "follow the golden rule"...and then only do good things 100% of the time? The rest of your life?

Doubtful. This shit is hard!

I think reflection and pondering how to overcome our programming is -- at the very least -- interesting.

First it was roughly, "Am I a cunt?"

And then it was, "How do I be less of a cunt?"

And now it's something else.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Ronald RayGun »

Bram wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:29 amFor those replying, do you say to yourself "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "be a friend to all" or "follow the golden rule"...and then only do good things 100% of the time? The rest of your life?
Naw, man. Never that. I'm not a saint, I'm just a pragmatist. Treating people with kindness tends to, more often than not, yield great results for me. Just the same, if a MFer gwan test, the pimp-hand will follow. As a great pop-culture icon once said, "be like water, my friend". Don't get in your own head about it too much. You know when right is right. Go with the flow and fuck the rest.
"Sorry I didn't save the world, my friend. I was too busy building mine again" - Kendrick Lamar


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Post by motherjuggs&speed »

Bram is a Californian. He has to have a narcissistic self indulgent ideology in his head or he can't function. It's like trying to run a computer without an operating system.

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Post by Ronald RayGun »

916 till I die.
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Post by Bram »

Ronald RayGun wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:38 am
Bram wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:29 amFor those replying, do you say to yourself "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" or "be a friend to all" or "follow the golden rule"...and then only do good things 100% of the time? The rest of your life?
Naw, man. Never that. I'm not a saint, I'm just a pragmatist. Treating people with kindness tends to, more often than not, yield great results for me. Just the same, if a MFer gwan test, the pimp-hand will follow. As a great pop-culture icon once said, "be like water, my friend". Don't get in your own head about it too much. You know when right is right. Go with the flow and fuck the rest.
Based on the interactions I've had with you, I do think you live this way. My hat's off to you, sir.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Bram
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Post by Bram »

motherjuggs&speed wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:22 am Bram is a Californian. He has to have a narcissistic self indulgent ideology in his head or he can't function. It's like trying to run a computer without an operating system.
Yes.

But I wouldn't blame it on just being a Californian :)
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Bram »

I'm going to give an example of something else...

I trained Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for five years. My goal was to tap everyone in the academy: every teacher, every student, every belt level. And if I could tap them a bunch of times, I would try. I never submitted everyone, but it helped me improve.

This attitude also is the reason I quit. Somewhere inside, I knew the way I was approaching it created bad blood and that someone would eventually fuck me up. I wasn't cranking subs, but I would go for the win nearly 100% of the time.

I loved, LOVED, Jiu-Jitsu, but gave it up.

Perhaps if I was to return with a different perspective, it could be a good part of my life again.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee


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Post by motherjuggs&speed »

I'm surprised they didn't kick you out of, well, everywhere.

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Post by Bram »

motherjuggs&speed wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 3:36 pm I'm surprised they didn't kick you out of, well, everywhere.
Well, to be honest...this is behavior I parroted from "The Best." "THE BEST" take the most waves in surfing, ruthlessly tap everyone in BJJ, etc. These are the people who often have the most awards or prestige, but obviously they are not the most liked to share a space with.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee


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Post by Bennyonesix1 »

Be eutropic. Make others and their lives better. Do good deeds. Be open to good things happening to you. Let the good things and interactions happen. Don't be embarrassed by lots of good things happening. Don't feel guilty about it. The universe is awash in energy and resources. I used to really get after entropic types, but I try and avoid them now...


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Post by Bennyonesix1 »

I remember a thing from Maxwell the bjj weirdo who tried to get one of the P&B dudes too uhhhhh "hang out with him" ALLEGEDLY hahahhahabah anyway he said something that was true: you have to compete against and defeat people who are worse than you to get really good. I am not jiujitsu monkey but this is true in basketball and tennis and arm wrestling at least. One can't really learn the ins and outs by struggling to not get demolished or even in a hard fought contest. The headspace is all wrong. The right headspace is one where you can maintain a separation from the contest, one where you are ahead of the opponent(s). One can feel how things develop naturally and how to integrate into it. For example, in BBall one can track how others are moving and how it makes sense because that is how basketball works on a fundamental level. And then you can execute in accordance with that reality. That's excellence. That's Jordan. That's Floyd Mayweather jr. That's the Jap Jap Judo dude who dominated the Olympics.

Jesus blah blah blah but anyway your "defeat them all" wasn't entirely wrong even if it was coming from a bad place...

"Letting the game come to you" can only be developed by easily defeating opponents.

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Post by Bram »

Bennyonesix1 wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:30 pm Be eutropic. Make others and their lives better. Do good deeds. Be open to good things happening to you. Let the good things and interactions happen. Don't be embarrassed by lots of good things happening. Don't feel guilty about it. The universe is awash in energy and resources. I used to really get after entropic types, but I try and avoid them now...
I really like this. And good vocab flex, never heard eutropic before.

I will say, just from a few days of attempting an attitude and behavior shift, I seem to feel better in accepting the good fortune I have (being able to surf, enjoying my work), and also less of a need to externally share it.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Bram »

As to your post on:

“Letting the game come to you" can only be developed by easily defeating opponents.

There were some people I trained with who were as competitive as me and we had great wars — still buddies with my favorite sparring partner.

There was another guy — still friends as well — where we’d almost only do “flow rolls.” In these we’d seldom hunt submissions, instead just a give and take, with exploration of passes, transitions, etc. It was super fun! Probably the highlight of all my training was those encounters.

With other people I could have asked, “What does this person need to have the best roll?” Maybe they were a white belt who was well suited for a particular position or submission and we could have showed them details on the sub and started with them already in that position…or maybe they were having a bad day and would be better off not training with me….or we could spend the time trading off (or just them) drilling a sweep, sub, or pass.

Just like in surfing, I only remember a few special submissions (or good waves), but the bad encounters — and the really fun ones — are much more memorable.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Bram »

Alright, I've been thoughtful about being giving for the past two weeks. Here's my experience:

One of the best life changes I've attempted.

Yes, I caught less waves, spent more money, and spent more time. But, holy shit! Consciously making the "giving" choice was huge in terms of feeling good about myself, silencing the inner critic, eliminating the I-owe-you-you-owe-me calculations...and genuinely put other people in good moods a few times.

Lastly, NO other people will not always step up to help. So keep your eyes, ears, and heart open for the opportunity.
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee


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Post by Bennyonesix1 »

Great work Bram. That's been my experience to but I came more from the neutrality position than the taking position. I honestly think God is Being (more too) and acting like you have been increases the amount of Being in the world. It's why I think of actions like that as eutropic which is when a sunflower turns itself toward the sun. I suspect that when the current runs both ways there is even more Being generated.

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Post by Bram »

Thanks, Benny!

I like your way of thinking about it :)

Some of the past two weeks was really easy, some was not.

This mindset has been a form of presence: both in looking for the opportunity to do something nice (the easy part) and in being aware of the rationalizations to not make those choices (the hard part) -- "oh someone else will probably help" or "this person did so-and-so, so I'm not doing that!"

Keep up the good work too! :heart: :supz:
"Forget about your feelings and become one with the work." -- Bruce Lee

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Post by Shafpocalypse Now »

good fucking god.

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Post by Fat Cat »

Shafpocalypse Now wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:51 pm good fucking god.
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