Mass Shootings in America

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Post by Bram »

The killing of the 21 people (17 more injured) in Uvalde, Texas was the 198th mass shooting of 2022 in the USA. There’s been another one already since.

We are averaging 10 a week this year.

I heard this quote today:

“Imagine nobody knows what happens when we die. Then make decisions according to what kind of world you want to live in.”

Thoughts?
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Post by Gene »

Bram wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:08 pm The killing of the 21 people (17 more injured) in Uvalde, Texas was the 198th mass shooting of 2022 in the USA. There’s been another one already since.

We are averaging 10 a week this year.
...and the same mechanism that failed with alcohol and drugs is going to be used to curb it. The miracle power of prohibition. Nixon declared war on drugs in 1970. Biden and his buddies imposed "Civil Forfeiture". Reagan tightened the screws. The US prison population rose up.

It's 2022. School kids can still buy weed or "edibles", just as their great grandparents could buy bathtub gin or homemade wine.

Some good might come out of it - knife fighting might come back. Those gun detection gimmicks can't hear a knife being used.

Bram wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:08 pm I heard this quote today:

“Imagine nobody knows what happens when we die. Then make decisions according to what kind of world you want to live in.”

Thoughts?
What any one of us thinks is not so important as what enough of us think. What kind of a world would we tolerate?

We would get along fine on a personal basis with fewer guns. It's what follows, as the Administrative State begins to insinuate itself into our lives. Fewer guns makes such tyranny less expensive and more convenient for busybodies.
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Post by nafod »

The well regulated militia is working overtime again
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Post by Bram »

Gene,

Do you not believe reasonable solutions exist for reducing mass shootings?
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Post by baffled »

I've read that this kid had shown up to play basketball or something with a friend with cuts all over his face that he said he'd given himself. He'd been kicked out of his mother's house, resulting in a large domestic dispute requiring local PD to show up.

It seems these guys are always known by local authorities and/or school officials and have warning signs but nothing is done for or about them. Anyone cutting, but in such an obvious place as their face, is screaming that they're unwell and need help.

Of the 99.9% of guns that are never used in a crime, .01% (or whatever the minuscule percentage of guns and gun owners involved in crimes happens to be) it's the bigger number that has to answer for it.

We just sent $40 billion to Ukraine, and have sent an untold number of US taxpayer dollars abroad in the form of foreign aid, but can't come up with the money to address mental illness in this country or secure schools in a way that keeps students and school staff safe.

The bottom line is that there are likely more guns in this country than people, and they're not going away. Driving gun ownership underground isn't going to make things better or safer. Addressing mental health, doing more to secure schools, and maybe having cops do their job would all be good ideas that may make a change.

I mean, the Marjorie Stoneman Douglas shooting and now this one both seem to involve finger-pointing at the PD not confronting an active shooter in a school.
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Post by nafod »

He was a law abiding citizen, waiting until he was 18 to legally buy his AR-15 and boxes of ammo. All on the up and up until he shot grandma in the face.

How about that Uvalde SWAT team?
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Post by DrDonkeyLove... »

I've decided to focus on the heroic Border Patrol agent who knew what had to be done and did it.

What are the chances of us ever learning what mood altering drugs are in the systems of this type of mass shooter? If your answer is anything above 0%, you are mistaken.

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Post by nafod »

DrDonkeyLove... wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:31 pm I've decided to focus on the heroic Border Patrol agent who knew what had to be done and did it.
Reminds me of the saying in the military, in order to get a Medal of Honor somebody has to fuck up.

Bravo to him.
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Post by Grandpa's Spells »

nafod wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:13 am He was a law abiding citizen, waiting until he was 18 to legally buy his AR-15 and boxes of ammo. All on the up and up until he shot grandma in the face.

How about that Uvalde SWAT team?
I've shared this here before, but when I was trying to get my suburban PD to arrest someone, I had to eventually get a Chicago cop to handle it, who did so within about 2 hours of my asking. I asked him why my local PD wouldn't do it, and he said, "Guys don't become cops in that town if they want to chase bad guys."

If you're a cop the overwhelming majority of the United States, you can't shoot, you aren't prepared to be in a gunfight, and you have no interest in doing either. I'm a nobody and have done enough shooting around cops to know that the first couple local cops going through that barricade with an AR-armed and motivated killer were extremely likely to die. They're not soldiers and haven't been trained to resist the instinct to nope the fuck out of that situation and find a reason to sit tight.
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Post by nafod »

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prev ... 1848971668

UVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place.
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Post by nafod »

:drinkers:
We were told today, in the latest version of events offered by authorities in Texas, that police left children locked in a classroom with a gunman for 78 minutes as they repeatedly called 911 begging for help, not knowing that their would-be rescuers were standing idly by. If there is a more poignant and more savage allegory for a country with a clear and urgent reason to solve an obvious policy problem that lacks either the will or courage to do so, it couldn’t be imagined by a vengeful god.
A bunch of Texas gun cosplay mother fuckers standing around while another newly minted great Texas gun patriot, having exercised his recently given privilege to buy a gun of mass destruction at the age of 18, killed these children. I struggle to imagine adults failing children worse than this.

Did Abbott increase mental health spending at the same time he was making AR-15s readily available to the endless supply of troubled 18 year olds with dreams of a violent ending?

Ohhh, the irony
Officials say several law enforcement entities from across the state have been called in by Uvalde police to not only assist in supplementing their police force, but to also provide extra protection to officers and the mayor following heavy criticism and threats.
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Post by Gene »

Bram wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:38 am Gene,

Do you not believe reasonable solutions exist for reducing mass shootings?
I think most mass shootings begin as business disputes in illegal drug sales.

First move would be to legalize weed on a Federal level. I don't care for it, but it's not any better or worse than liquor. I live in Opiate Abuse central, legalizing weed would spare some of these people going to "hillybilly heroin".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6827842/

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/071221- ... c%20Health.

If weed is a "gateway drug" it's because of where you get it, not what it is. Drug dealers will turn you on to other stuff. People don't buy heroin at the liquor store.

Second would be reducing the profit of illicit drugs. The more we make drugs illegal, the bigger the risk, the bigger the needed profit margin. The big profits and high risk attracts ruthless people, people who would murder for money.

The opposite should be true. Reduce penalties, reduces risk, and make murder worth less to handle business. Killing people over drug sales becomes unnecessary, a liability.

US methods of handling drugs are wrecking our Republic. The banking laws, privacy laws, Civil Forfeiture and tossing repeated "possession" offenders into prison isn't working. After fifty years of the War on Drugs it's time to declare victory and go home. Portugal was able to partially legalize drugs, it is helping them.

If gun control worked Chicago would be safer than Houston but it's the opposite. Chicago with Illinois laws had 797 homicides in 2021. Houston with Texas gun laws had 473 killed in 2021. Just two towns, roughly the same size, in the midwest US.

Schools? We already have laws. If they're not enforced why are more laws going to help? Cruz at Marjorie Stoneman was waiting for his Baker Act. Ramos was a poster child for the Texas equivalent of Florida's baker act. Ramos was legal but left clues. His bad behavior at work, his social media posts and his reactions to turning off the WiFi. We don't need "Red Flag", we got the tools.

We have all of these laws meant to manage people who are a danger to themselves, how do they fall through the cracks? Does anyone know of a normal school shooter? Is there a profile for a school shooter?

Might be nice for the Corporate owned Media to knock off glamorizing school shooters. They make anti-heroes out of them. The coverage of mass shootings is done in a way that glamorizes violence for these losers. Misfits and losers get to see kids wailing and crying, hurt and broken. I think that this coverage makes embryonic mass shooters feel that they too could be powerful. There is something more to it, like taking this twisted idea into action. I don't know what that is.

We never see any reports of what these losers face in prison, which is many times worse than high school. If we saw how Dylan Roof suffers in prison or how Cruz is suffering in prison, I bet a few kids would abandon this idea of power through mass murder. What is the point of punishing people if we don't use them as examples? Why are the stunted and miserable lives of surviving school shooters not put on the news? Why don't see the families of these kids on TV, showing their suffering? Their shame?

The Media hands these kids a pathway to power, the evil upside, none of the downside. The Media doesn't encourage it, they want profits for advertising dollars. If it bleeds, it leads. Their greed, our bleeding.

I want to attack the root causes of most violence.... it's business. Take the profit out of illicit drugs, you reduce the desire for violence. Prohibition doesn't work. Didn't work for weed ain't gonna work for a firearm that is in the hands of millions of people.
Last edited by Gene on Sun May 29, 2022 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Grandpa's Spells wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:00 pm I've shared this here before, but when I was trying to get my suburban PD to arrest someone, I had to eventually get a Chicago cop to handle it, who did so within about 2 hours of my asking. I asked him why my local PD wouldn't do it, and he said, "Guys don't become cops in that town if they want to chase bad guys."

If you're a cop the overwhelming majority of the United States, you can't shoot, you aren't prepared to be in a gunfight, and you have no interest in doing either.
Must be an Illinois thing. Here in Pennsyltucky it's different. Around here a lot of them are cowboys. They thump people, tote around AR15s and are sporting IPSC style rigs. I've had two of them put their hands on their duty weapons while talking to me. A misunderstanding and some caution on their part.

You don't even need a police department to handle a mass shooter. Some clown in Charleston WV got bent because someone asked him to slow down. He came back with AR15, started shooting. A woman in the crowd with a concealed firearm fired back, killing him.

One woman. One handgun. End of mass shooting. May 27 2022. No news she was in Law Enforcement. Just someone who could shoot back.
CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.

Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.

The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news ... rty-crowd/
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Post by Bennyonesix1 »

nafod wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:06 pm :drinkers:
We were told today, in the latest version of events offered by authorities in Texas, that police left children locked in a classroom with a gunman for 78 minutes as they repeatedly called 911 begging for help, not knowing that their would-be rescuers were standing idly by. If there is a more poignant and more savage allegory for a country with a clear and urgent reason to solve an obvious policy problem that lacks either the will or courage to do so, it couldn’t be imagined by a vengeful god.
A bunch of Texas gun cosplay mother fuckers standing around while another newly minted great Texas gun patriot, having exercised his recently given privilege to buy a gun of mass destruction at the age of 18, killed these children. I struggle to imagine adults failing children worse than this.

Did Abbott increase mental health spending at the same time he was making AR-15s readily available to the endless supply of troubled 18 year olds with dreams of a violent ending?

Ohhh, the irony
Officials say several law enforcement entities from across the state have been called in by Uvalde police to not only assist in supplementing their police force, but to also provide extra protection to officers and the mayor following heavy criticism and threats.
What kind of military guy calls a semi-auto ar-15 a "gun of mass destruction"?

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Post by Bram »

Well, I'd vote for:

#1 an assault weapons ban...and bans on things that make guns into assault weapons
#2 closing loopholes in background checks: "22 percent of Americans reported that they purchased their most recent gun without any background check."
#3 tax/gasoline/whatever rebates for people turning in guns
#4 making gun ownership more like car ownership: license, registration, insurance, pass a test that is a pain in the ass, different tests for different types of guns....
#5 raise the minimum age for buying/owning a gun
#6 increased funding for public mental health services

Probably some other shit too.

----

Glad that lady chose to do the right thing, pulled it off, and protected others. If she didn't, we'd likely have another AR-15 mass murder this week.
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Post by Bram »

Some random things I came across:

As of 2020, guns are now the leading cause of death for people aged 1-19 in America. For decades, it was car crashes.

The firearm death rate in the US is 11.4 times higher than other high-income countries.

Firearm homicide rates were 36 times higher in high-gun US states and 13.5 times higher in low-gun US states than the firearm homicide rate in other high-income countries combined.

From 1966 to 2019, over 80% of mass shooters at K-12 schools stole guns from family members.

-----

Less guns would be a simple solution to the above issues.

----

20% of Americans have a mental illness, 5.6% have a severe mental illness. For 18-25 year olds, 9.7% have a severe mental illness.

1 in 6 Americans say they can't afford mental health care.
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Post by Bram »

Basically, less guns (harder to buy; more of them made illegal; whatever) = less gun problems
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Post by Gene »

Bram wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:47 am Basically, less guns (harder to buy; more of them made illegal; whatever) = less gun problems
So we're told.... why do Vermont and New Hampshire, with liberal gun laws, have a lower homicide rate than California or Massachusetts?

Here are the top five "safe states" from homicide.... according to the CDC and rated by the Giffords Foundation for gun laws.

State deaths per million Giffords Rating
New Hampshire - 0 - F
Vermont - 0 - C-
Maine - 1.6 - F
Idaho - 2.5 - F
Massachusetts - 2.7 - A-
Utah - 2.9 - F
Rhode Island - 3 - B
Hawaii - 3.3 - A-

https://giffords.org/lawcenter/resources/scorecard/

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosm ... micide.htm

If less guns means a safer State, where is the relationship here? It's not apparent here.

We know that the Giffords group gives bad ratings to Mississippi and Louisiana. How come they give rotten ratings to the top four safest states? Cause they don't like their gun laws. These states have liberal/easy gun laws but do not show the higher murder rates associated with 'less guns, less violence' formula.

Maybe there is something else going on besides gun availability? Perhaps we need to look at Mississippi and Louisiana to examine why they have so much homicide. It probably is more than guns.

The CDC does separate out "firearm mortality" and rank States but they add in suicides to murders. These ratings do tend to follow gun control laws. Since the world's leading methods of suicide are hanging and toxins it's not germane for people have a gun nearby.

The world's leader in suicide is Lesotho. The second is Guyana. Both are poor, both have or had British style gun licensing. The highest industrialized nation for suicide is Russia, which has a ban on handgun ownership. The Russians are closely tied to S. Korea, which has total abolition of firearms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate
Bram wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:47 amFirearm homicide rates were 36 times higher in high-gun US states and 13.5 times higher in low-gun US states than the firearm homicide rate in other high-income countries combined.
I don't understand what you mean by "high income"? Per capita income, maybe? When you clarify that I'd be happy to discuss it.


I believe that classifying 18 and 19 year olds as children is dishonest. You did not say it here, I'll admit it, but many gun control people have added in 18 and 19 year olds and called them all children.

I once showed that gun violence for kids 1 to 17 as a group is smaller than that of 18 and 19 year old adults as a group. I bet that is still going on.

This reinforces my point that the War on Drugs has casualties. We need to take the profits out of drugs, not give drug dealers a new product line like handguns or "assault weapons".
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Post by Ronald RayGun »

For me, it's as simple as this. I hadn't fired a gun since I was about 16. A few weeks ago, I had the pleasure of firing a homie's built-him-self AR platform. I was astounded at how perfect my grouping was. That's a roughly 25 year layoff from shooting and I just couldn't miss with that thing. It's a remarkable device for killing, to be true. Simple. Randos with brain disorders shouldn't have these. It's an easy-mode weapon.
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Post by Turdacious »

Another aspect: dc homicide rate up 14% last year, up 7% ytd. Includes multiple mass shootings. Guns used overwhelmingly unregistered. https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/district-crime-data-glance
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Post by nafod »

Bennyonesix1 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:40 pm What kind of military guy calls a semi-auto ar-15 a "gun of mass destruction"?
One who was trained to use it, deployed with it, and understands what it can do to a school full 4th graders or a concert audience in Vegas.

600 rounds a minute with a bump stock or mod to full auto.

I agree it’s not the gun. It’s the fetish. And no other weapon brings out the weird gun fetish like an AR15. It’s like a magnet for 18 year olds with no friends and violent visions, along with lots of other folks.
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Post by Bennyonesix1 »

You don't sound like a person with military training and experience.


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Post by Gene »

nafod wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 3:06 pm
Bennyonesix1 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:40 pm What kind of military guy calls a semi-auto ar-15 a "gun of mass destruction"?
One who was trained to use it, deployed with it, and understands what it can do to a school full 4th graders or a concert audience in Vegas.
The US military has not issued "AR15s" since the early days of the Vietnam war and only experimentally. The M16 was typed in 1964. The M4 was typed in 1994. I have a few friends who claim that they saw rifles maked AR15 while in training in the 1970s. No forward assist assembly. That was almost fifty years ago.

Your story seems suspect, Nafod. You've been talking like you're a Navy aviator. The air force only recently issued an M4 for flight crews, the GAU-5. If the Navy had one, the Air Force would have stolen it.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... ult-rifle/

If you were rotary wing, and especially if you were S&R? I could believe that you toted an M4 or M16. Neither of those are civilian AR15s.


Civilians can't get an M16/M4 in a sporting goods store. They can get AR15s. The ATF has criterion for sales and possession of AR15s. They are pretty clear that AR15s sold in sporting goods stores are not full auto. They issued this bulletin to caution people who bought AR15s that they might have a problem on their hands.

"In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration."

https://www.atf.gov/file/58146/download

Here is the BATF&E ruling on bump stocks. They are banned, illegal as heroin.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocks

Bump fire? I've never seen someone bump fire. I've seen videos. I wonder if someone who is bump firing could even hit anything at all.

There are 15,000,000 AR15s. There are not 15,000,000 school shootings. AR15s are not any different from any other self loading firearm. Except their looks.

The "weapon of war" narrative has been around since the 1990s. McChrystal and Petraeus got a job with Gabby Giffords and her "Veterans for Responsibility" outfit. They're good employees, spreading the Noble Lie of the weapon of war.

We can debate whether AR15s have a freak appeal. Weapons of war they ain't.

If there is a ban then at worst people can only buy "featureless" rifles. Same rifle, different look.
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Post by Grandpa's Spells »

Gene wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 6:27 pm
Grandpa's Spells wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 9:00 pm I've shared this here before, but when I was trying to get my suburban PD to arrest someone, I had to eventually get a Chicago cop to handle it, who did so within about 2 hours of my asking. I asked him why my local PD wouldn't do it, and he said, "Guys don't become cops in that town if they want to chase bad guys."

If you're a cop the overwhelming majority of the United States, you can't shoot, you aren't prepared to be in a gunfight, and you have no interest in doing either.
Must be an Illinois thing. Here in Pennsyltucky it's different. Around here a lot of them are cowboys. They thump people, tote around AR15s and are sporting IPSC style rigs. I've had two of them put their hands on their duty weapons while talking to me. A misunderstanding and some caution on their part.
Well yeah, most cops do want to do *that.* Even the Uvalle guys love to soldier cosplay and even draw guns on people unnecessarily. Arresting and tasing parents is something they're completely prepared to do.

Cops playing soldier and bullying civilians is totally on brand. Assaulting a classroom with a barricaded guy with an AR is a completely different scenario. It takes military or similar training to overcome the fear of likely death, and most cops don't don't/won't do that. The BP tactical guys that ultimately went in were both predisposed and trained to do so.
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Post by Bram »

Knowing people fall through the safety net of mental health, what guns do you feel comfortable with people intent on “mass murder to suicide” having access to?

At what age? What kind of background checks would you want them to go through first? What kind of red flag would you like to see raised that would prevent purchase?

It makes me wonder what specific set of hurdles would have worked to prevent these cases or reduce their severity.
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