Occupy Wall Street

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:21 pm

HVLN, let me give you an example. When I lived in Jo'burg every day I saw a woman whose job was a professional beggar at one of the city's intersections. To make the job more successful she brought two small children with her. After the democratic election, black party in power and the introduction of the affirmative action programs South Africa is supposedly the land of opportunity for the Africans. Do you reckon these children who grow at an intersection and mostly see their mother extending her hand to oncoming cars for money have much chance getting an education and moving up on the class ladder?

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:04 am

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?

here's a recent quotation about him:

John Rawls, the philosopher credited with expanding the intellectual framework for the modern social safety net.

one must take a step or two from theory to practical application, but his influence in the real world is real.

for most of you here, he may be the enemy you never knew you had. a brilliant thinker, entirely unknown to the general public, whose work has shaped the work of those who shape our institutions. bill clinton was a fan, apparently. from wikipedia:

{He was awarded} the National Humanities Medal in 1999 . . . presented by President Bill Clinton, in recognition of how Rawls' work "helped a whole generation of learned Americans revive their faith in democracy itself."

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:38 am

ÜberSmet wrote:Do you reckon these children who grow at an intersection and mostly see their mother extending her hand to oncoming cars for money have much chance getting an education and moving up on the class ladder?

They deserve every opportunity to have the same access to public systems that are afforded to anyone else and equally so, from the government/your tax dollars, no more and no less. Charity from private efforts are an entirely different matter.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:44 am

Fat Cat wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote:lie nap,

i'm no student of philosophy, but i thought it was interesting that someone thought to cite one of the leading moral philosophers of the 20th centry, rawls, as a guide for the wall street crew, perhaps trying to bring a level of seriousness to the latter-day hippies.

i'm struck that you use the term "fair" is your post, and "justice as fairness" is rawls's principle of justice. i believe he would challenge your notion of what is "fair," but he's dead, so that's not an exchange we'll be seeing.
As an aside, you might be stunned to know that I am all for the rational use of civil disobedience, protest and lawful assembly. You'd also be equally stunned to know I understand value in what 1960's hippies did as well as the protests of blacks of the 60's & 70's. Today's 'protests/movements' are an insult against those.

The notion of what is 'fair' is really what you're questioning, isn't it? We can't measure how hard I've worked to get to where I am today nor can we measure how hard John Q. Hardluck's efforts have been or not been as we both face the hands that have been dealt to us. We have to live our lives under the assumptions that life is not fair (nor will it ever be) and more importantly, that we make our own breaks. Mr. Burns, Dr. Evil and the rest of the secret cadre controlling the world's misery index don't have that much control over an individual's quality of life.

Excuses, comrade. Excuses.
Another guy making excuses for his incredibly weak performance.

Assuming that's a legit photo and there is no back story (which in itself, is hard to believe OWS wouldn't spin that one up....I would), he is certainly entitled to his opinion....nonetheless, he is still wasting his time.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:51 am

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:Do you reckon these children who grow at an intersection and mostly see their mother extending her hand to oncoming cars for money have much chance getting an education and moving up on the class ladder?
They deserve every opportunity to have the same access to public systems that are afforded to anyone else and equally so, from the government/your tax dollars, no more and no less. Charity from private efforts are an entirely different matter.

You are missing my point. Deserving or not they are unlikely to get out of poverty. Ignorant people are usually ignorant of their ignorance. Just like I wouldn't know it if I walked on the field of platinum ore, these guys don't know about opportunities that exist.

Just like the man on the photo posted by Fat Cat is physically disabled, folks growing up in alcoholic families in Detroit or Dayton are disabled in socio-economic sense.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:52 am

Hebrew Hammer wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
BucketHead wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
dead man walking wrote: google "veil of ignorance." proceed from there, if you're so inclined.
Is there any real world example demonstrating this actually works?
I've used google often and I can testify that it works
Maybe your Google works better than my Google, since you likely had a better upbringing than mine from an economic standpoint; because I couldn't find any real world working examples on the Google I was using.

It's a good thing that veil of ignorance isn't applied to flight schools or ATC schools, as a former RIO, don't you agree?
Here's a real-world application. Rawls uses the veil of ignorance as a rule of communication. He says we should reason together as if we did not know the status of the person we'd be in the nation we hope to create. He then develops the argument by postulating that reasonable people would want a safety net or some minimum standards given that they could be at the bottom of the society we want to build. Philosophically, this notion has a lot of problems, but it is intuitively powerful.

So here's a real world example that I think has the same intuitive force. Look at immigrants. They know they'll give up their homes and go to another country where they'll start with nothing. Thus they will not go somewhere that is not "fair" in the sense of providing a safety net and opportunity. Where do they leave and where do they go?

People all over the world -- rich, poor, educated or not -- want to come to the USA. Thus, real world, they perceive the US as a fair society for the 1% at the bottom of society. That, of course, is the opposite of the perception of OWS crowd.

They may or may not start with nothing. Many start by making $50-$60/hr US in their first project here (experienced SAP consultants come to mind) and have a very deep network of people to support them otherwise....places to stay, transportation, ect.

The example I was looking for, and was not clear on, was some sort of government program that used this veil successfully to select people for say education, training or jobs.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 am

ÜberSmet wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:Do you reckon these children who grow at an intersection and mostly see their mother extending her hand to oncoming cars for money have much chance getting an education and moving up on the class ladder?
They deserve every opportunity to have the same access to public systems that are afforded to anyone else and equally so, from the government/your tax dollars, no more and no less. Charity from private efforts are an entirely different matter.

You are missing my point. Deserving or not they are unlikely to get out of poverty. Ignorant people are usually ignorant of their ignorance. Just like I wouldn't know it if I walked on the field of platinum ore, these guys don't know about opportunities that exist.

Just like the man on the photo posted by Fat Cat is physically disabled, folks growing up in alcoholic families in Detroit or Dayton are disabled in socio-economic sense.

Agree with sentences 2&3--with emphasis on usually (vs. always). Give me an example of a government program that would be 'fair' and somehow help the ignorant become enlightened. Education, training, jobs, whatever. How do you fix poor, ignorant people is what I am asking.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:11 am

Interestingly, Clinton rolled back Rawls influence with his welfare policy.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:14 am

although an opponent of the war in vietnam, rawls also thought the student deferment of the time (2-s) was wrong, allowing the privileged to avoid serving while the less advantaged did the fighting. had rawls been in charge, cheney might have gone to vietnam. how different might the world be had the chickenhawks fought in the jungle.

rawls himself was a foot soldier in the pacific during ww ii.

Holland Oates · Post by **Holland Oates** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:35 am

You can throw all the money in the world at education and it will still fail if the kids refuse to learn.

Look up the Kansas City Public School experiment.

You can lead a horse to an olympic swimming pool and the negro still can't swim.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:31 am

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:Agree with sentences 2&3--with emphasis on usually (vs. always). Give me an example of a government program that would be 'fair' and somehow help the ignorant become enlightened. Education, training, jobs, whatever. How do you fix poor, ignorant people is what I am asking.

The proverbial question. Relevant for our discussion of Wall Street scamming greedy ignorants would be regulation of the banking industry. Though not ideal it would protect the majority of the ignorant from the minority of very clued up. How to eliminate poverty altogether - I have no idea.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:11 am

ÜberSmet wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:Agree with sentences 2&3--with emphasis on usually (vs. always). Give me an example of a government program that would be 'fair' and somehow help the ignorant become enlightened. Education, training, jobs, whatever. How do you fix poor, ignorant people is what I am asking.
The proverbial question. Relevant for our discussion of Wall Street scamming greedy ignorants would be regulation of the banking industry. Though not ideal it would protect the majority of the ignorant from the minority of very clued up. to eliminate poverty altogether - I have no idea.

So in the end, I can demonstrate real world examples of the poverty stricken making it and you can provide examples of those who don't (not 'can't' mind you, 'don't').

FWIW, I think we agree that many of the people who got ARM loans 6+ years ago did not deserve them, be they ignorant or slick, poor or upper middle class or better. It's the seeming desire by you (and others) to only want to blame the financial services institutions without holding politicians and the defaulters of these loans accountable--at least in the Monday Morning Quarterback sense of the term. To me, letting two out of three slide accomplishes no real basis of correction for the future.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:05 am

I probably didn't make it clear from the beginning, but I think politicians should bear primary responsibility for the shit that happened, then financial industry. The problem is, these two are happily married, making it two against one.

PC Polar Circle Person · Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:05 am

Most of this is way over my simple head. I thought these people were protesting the fact that banks have been bailed out from their greedy fuck-ups with taxpayer money, which should be wrong by anyone's standards, no? In Europe people are mightily pissed off to the fact that Greece first falsified it's financial records to be able to join EU, later got caught and was found out to be in a state of bankruptcy and is now being bailed out by all of us because "otherwise the whole EU will fall". What kind of message does this send out to common people? If shit like this is not unfair and straight out wrong and worth protesting for, then what is?

Is OWS is about something else?

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:26 pm

Ice Nigger wrote:Most of this is way over my simple head. I thought these people were protesting the fact that banks have been bailed out from their greedy fuck-ups with taxpayer money, which should be wrong by anyone's standards, no? In Europe people are mightily pissed off to the fact that Greece first falsified it's financial records to be able to join EU, later got caught and was found out to be in a state of bankruptcy and is now being bailed out by all of us because "otherwise the whole EU will fall". What kind of message does this send out to common people? If shit like this is not unfair and straight out wrong and worth protesting for, then what is?

Is OWS is about something else?

No, that's pretty much it. They're taking unreasonable risks because the profit is private but the risk is to the public. Many of the behaviors that have become standard are in fact illegal. There's been an increasing lack of regard for the public good.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:50 pm

Ice Nigger wrote:Most of this is way over my simple head. I thought these people were protesting the fact that banks have been bailed out from their greedy fuck-ups with taxpayer money, which should be wrong by anyone's standards, no? In Europe people are mightily pissed off to the fact that Greece first falsified it's financial records to be able to join EU, later got caught and was found out to be in a state of bankruptcy and is now being bailed out by all of us because "otherwise the whole EU will fall". What kind of message does this send out to common people? If shit like this is not unfair and straight out wrong and worth protesting for, then what is?

Is OWS is about something else?

IMO most of them are protesting because it's fun. They're also protesting because of the college loan scam, because the economy doesn't respect their generally overpriced degrees. Middle aged folks that are protesting with them (but not living there) are pissed about the banks.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:08 pm

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:19 pm

ÜberSmet wrote:After the democratic election, black party in power and the introduction of the affirmative action programs South Africa is supposedly the land of opportunity for the Africans.

No one on Earth actually believes or argues this.

milosz · Post by **milosz** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:24 pm

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: FWIW, I think we agree that many of the people who got ARM loans 6+ years ago did not deserve them, be they ignorant or slick, poor or upper middle class or better. It's the seeming desire by you (and others) to only want to blame the financial services institutions without holding politicians and the defaulters of these loans accountable--at least in the Monday Morning Quarterback sense of the term. To me, letting two out of three slide accomplishes no real basis of correction for the future.

Except that the people with shitty loans are the only people being held accountable in any way.

But to argue that individuals, most of whom are at best are of average intelligence and education, are supposed to be treated as equal parties in a rigged system is absurd.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:01 pm

Occupy Oakland protestor and Iraq war vet shot in the face by OPD. Stay classy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... 33159.html

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:02 pm

burn him on a pyre of dollar bills from ill-gotten gains

Rajat K. Gupta, the highest-ranking corporate executive to become embroiled in a push by the government to root out insider trading, pleaded not guilty Wednesday to charges of leaking confidential information while serving as a director at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Procter & Gamble Co.

In a six-count indictment, federal prosecutors in Manhattan alleged that Mr. Gupta, the former head of global consulting firm McKinsey & Co., leaked details about the companies' financial condition and an investment by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc. to former hedge-fund titan Raj Rajaratnam. The Galleon Group founder was sentenced earlier this month to serve 11 years in prison for insider trading.

baffled · Post by **baffled** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote:Occupy Oakland protestor and Iraq war vet shot in the face by OPD. Stay classy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... 33159.html

Those motherfuckers went nuts last night. Interrupted the rerun of Big Bang Theory I was watching.

Sucks that guy got capped, but Oakland was the place I was hoping would remain ignorant to this thing. Those animals are going to burn that city. They just had the police chief resign a couple weeks ago I think as well. It was bound to get out of hand there.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:46 pm

milosz wrote:
High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote: FWIW, I think we agree that many of the people who got ARM loans 6+ years ago did not deserve them, be they ignorant or slick, poor or upper middle class or better. It's the seeming desire by you (and others) to only want to blame the financial services institutions without holding politicians and the defaulters of these loans accountable--at least in the Monday Morning Quarterback sense of the term. To me, letting two out of three slide accomplishes no real basis of correction for the future.
Except that the people with shitty loans are the only people being held accountable in any way.

But to argue that individuals, most of whom are at best are of average intelligence and education, are supposed to be treated as equal parties in a rigged system is absurd.

Nonsense....people of average or below average intelligence know a scam when they see one. Don't think for a heartbeat that Loquisha Ghetto Fabulous Done Nasty be thinking she isn't doing anything wrong when a shady financial services company tells her to say she's making 40k more than she really is doesn't know she's done something wrong when she inks those stated income docs.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:48 pm

ACORN planting seeds? Say it isn't so!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/26/ex ... -movement/

lasalle · Post by **lasalle** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:28 am

I disagree with at least 60% of what these people are demanding. And having walked through and around both the "Occupy SF" and "Occupy Oakland" camps, I can personally attest to the fact that there is huge percentage of trustafarians and general fuckwits in the middle of all of this.

But jesus fucking christ that police action in Oakland was bullshit. What happened to the right to peacefully assemble? Freedom of speech?

I'm beginning to think this whole movement is a big deal.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QngE6kKk8Lg[/youtube]

IGX

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