Occupy Wall Street

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:27 pm

A keyboard that works like this, HVLN?

in the olden days at some newspapers, you typed all lower case (OR CAPS), on a manual typewriter, mind you, which made it easier for the copy desk to use printer's symbols to establish the stylistic elements. i was briefly a not-so-good reporter and adopted that old-time manner for igx.

I, too, would like a return to prosperity and would use any ill-gotten gains to help my son and his girl move out. It's tough out there for 20-somethings, and it's tough in here living with the 20-somethings.

cleaner464 · Post by **cleaner464** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:34 pm

Hebrew Hammer wrote:
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

The government bailed out some of the banks to prevent the whole system from collapsing. The government let some banks, like Lehman, collapse. And they let many others get swallowed up. The failures and the acquisitions are continuing and it will be a few years before it all shakes out. I'm sure bad decisions were made, but it will be 50 years before we get a good understanding of it. And it was done in day-to-day emergencies, not some sort of planned conspiracy.

People moan that the bailed-out banks are making money now. That was the point. The idea was to save them so that they could return to solvency and profitability.

There are credible policy choices to make about banking and finance, but talk about abolishing the federal reserve is complete lunacy. And if you don't own the stock, why should anyone care what some head of a big bank makes?
Because it affects the cost of everything. Because my grandchildren are saddled with bailout costs for his bad and/or evil decisions while he gets richer and they have a darker future.
The bank president's salary doesn't affect the cost of anything. Supply and demand do. There are probably 25 massive banks competing every day for massive-bank work around the world. They do not change the prices they bid at because of the salaries their presidents make.

Your grandchildren are saddled with costs from bad decisions made by lots of people. But any system will face periodic collapses. Very few saw it coming. Those that did made a fortune going short. Thus before it hit it was far from obvious. We should be focused on fixing as best as we can rather than Know-Nothing anger.

I disagree HH. By tying their compensation to quarter to quarter results, instead of long term planning and growth, the salary of a CEO is very much a factor to consider. It is much easier to cut costs than it is to make your business a long lasting concern. Straight out reduction of domestic headcount, or exporting jobs overseas are the most unimaginative, yet effective ways of achieving the short term goals necessary to get Mr. CEO his gold-plated yacht, or to keep his mistress in fur coats.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:35 pm

dead man walking wrote: I, too, would like a return to prosperity and would use any ill-gotten gains to help my son and his girl move out. It's tough out there for 20-somethings, and it's tough in here living with the 20-somethings.

and to think i assumed you were just one of those crotchety perma-scowl faced liberals from philly.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:44 pm

you're not too far off with that assumption

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:50 pm

cleaner464 wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

The government bailed out some of the banks to prevent the whole system from collapsing. The government let some banks, like Lehman, collapse. And they let many others get swallowed up. The failures and the acquisitions are continuing and it will be a few years before it all shakes out. I'm sure bad decisions were made, but it will be 50 years before we get a good understanding of it. And it was done in day-to-day emergencies, not some sort of planned conspiracy.

People moan that the bailed-out banks are making money now. That was the point. The idea was to save them so that they could return to solvency and profitability.

There are credible policy choices to make about banking and finance, but talk about abolishing the federal reserve is complete lunacy. And if you don't own the stock, why should anyone care what some head of a big bank makes?
Because it affects the cost of everything. Because my grandchildren are saddled with bailout costs for his bad and/or evil decisions while he gets richer and they have a darker future.
The bank president's salary doesn't affect the cost of anything. Supply and demand do. There are probably 25 massive banks competing every day for massive-bank work around the world. They do not change the prices they bid at because of the salaries their presidents make.

Your grandchildren are saddled with costs from bad decisions made by lots of people. But any system will face periodic collapses. Very few saw it coming. Those that did made a fortune going short. Thus before it hit it was far from obvious. We should be focused on fixing as best as we can rather than Know-Nothing anger.
I disagree HH. By tying their compensation to quarter to quarter results, instead of long term planning and growth, the salary of a CEO is very much a factor to consider. It is much easier to cut costs than it is to make your business a long lasting concern. Straight out reduction of domestic headcount, or exporting jobs overseas are the most unimaginative, yet effective ways of achieving the short term goals necessary to get Mr. CEO his gold-plated yacht, or to keep his mistress in fur coats.

Stop your sensical.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:09 pm

Hebrew Hammer wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

I used to think the Soviets were the masters of propaganda.
I make factual statements, and you do the mocking stupid thing. Very persuasive.

You THINK you're making factual statements, exactly how propaganda works. The facts are quite the opposite.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:31 pm

http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/15 ... y_movement

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:12 am

ÜberSmet wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

I used to think the Soviets were the masters of propaganda.
I make factual statements, and you do the mocking stupid thing. Very persuasive.
You THINK you're making factual statements, exactly how propaganda works. The facts are quite the opposite.

Let me break it down for you into pieces to make it easier for you to spit out an intelligent comment. I made three factual statements about (i)the state of opportunity, luxury, and freedom in American now compared to any time in history; (ii) this state compared to almost anywhere else in the world; and (iii) ambitious people everywhere wanting to immigrate to America.

So which of those do you disagree with factually?

Hebrew Hammer · Post by **Hebrew Hammer** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:22 am

cleaner464 wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:
DrDonkeyLove wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

The government bailed out some of the banks to prevent the whole system from collapsing. The government let some banks, like Lehman, collapse. And they let many others get swallowed up. The failures and the acquisitions are continuing and it will be a few years before it all shakes out. I'm sure bad decisions were made, but it will be 50 years before we get a good understanding of it. And it was done in day-to-day emergencies, not some sort of planned conspiracy.

People moan that the bailed-out banks are making money now. That was the point. The idea was to save them so that they could return to solvency and profitability.

There are credible policy choices to make about banking and finance, but talk about abolishing the federal reserve is complete lunacy. And if you don't own the stock, why should anyone care what some head of a big bank makes?
Because it affects the cost of everything. Because my grandchildren are saddled with bailout costs for his bad and/or evil decisions while he gets richer and they have a darker future.
The bank president's salary doesn't affect the cost of anything. Supply and demand do. There are probably 25 massive banks competing every day for massive-bank work around the world. They do not change the prices they bid at because of the salaries their presidents make.

Your grandchildren are saddled with costs from bad decisions made by lots of people. But any system will face periodic collapses. Very few saw it coming. Those that did made a fortune going short. Thus before it hit it was far from obvious. We should be focused on fixing as best as we can rather than Know-Nothing anger.
I disagree HH. By tying their compensation to quarter to quarter results, instead of long term planning and growth, the salary of a CEO is very much a factor to consider. It is much easier to cut costs than it is to make your business a long lasting concern. Straight out reduction of domestic headcount, or exporting jobs overseas are the most unimaginative, yet effective ways of achieving the short term goals necessary to get Mr. CEO his gold-plated yacht, or to keep his mistress in fur coats.

As I understand it, you don't object to paying handsome salaries to CEO's so long as they create sustainable, profitable entities, but you do object to those getting paid big salaries for chasing quarterly earnings while sacrificing long-term growth. That's more of a Princeton economics department discussion than OWS.

Still, I think the error is that if you're right, you'd be wealthy. You'd be the genius who sees this and who shorts every company doing the short-term thing, and who exposes them, leading others to dump the stock once they see how they were deceived by inflated quarterlies based on sacrificing the company's long-term profitability. In other words, the market deals with this issue over time.

More technically, the problem loomed larger during the internet bubble, and there were all sorts of stock drops based on needing to restate earnings that were fabricated. I see very little of that now, though I don't follow it too closely.

As an aside, I see the real problem with executive salaries is that they are so small compared to the size of the businesses that the stock market doesn't care. So directors are given leeway to be more generous than they probably would be in a closely held corporation. There's all sorts of activity in this area now, but again we're a long way from OWS.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:12 am

Cleaner would have more money if he hadn't donated so much to Jon Corzine.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:50 am

Hebrew Hammer wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:
ÜberSmet wrote:
Hebrew Hammer wrote:The system has challenges, but it allows everyone of us to live a life of opportunity, luxury, and freedom unlike anything in history and unlike almost anywhere in the globe today. That's why ambitious people everywhere want to immigrate to America.

I used to think the Soviets were the masters of propaganda.
I make factual statements, and you do the mocking stupid thing. Very persuasive.
You THINK you're making factual statements, exactly how propaganda works. The facts are quite the opposite.
Let me break it down for you into pieces to make it easier for you to spit out an intelligent comment. I made three factual statements about (i)the state of opportunity, luxury, and freedom in American now compared to any time in history; (ii) this state compared to almost anywhere else in the world; and (iii) ambitious people everywhere wanting to immigrate to America.

So which of those do you disagree with factually?

It all depends how you look at things. Factually you are corrects in all three statements. However, they are applicable to many countries, starting with well off Old World - Switzerland, France, Germany etc. - and ending with more arguable, such as Russian Federation and South Africa. Just as an example, but Russian riches, luxury and freedom are at their respectable peaks right now, better than ever; it compares very favorable with many (most?) countries in the world and ambitious people from everywhere come to make a buck there.

As such, these statements are not very useful for the purposes of this thread, i.e. the relevance of OWS movement. I don't think anyone tries to argue that USA is a bad country, but it has its problems, to the point that its unregulated financial system fucked up the economy of the whole world and ruined a lot of its own citizens.

That's as intelligent as I am capable of.

Dux · Post by **Dux** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:07 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2qqRFYv3ao[/youtube]

Discuss.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:16 am

The Occupy movement came to Los Angeles aiming for Wall Street titans, but farmers market vendors are the first to take a real hit.

Two weeks ago, about 40 vendors who sell on the City Hall lawn every Thursday were forced off the property after protesters refused to remove their city of tents.

The mini-businesses — produce farmers, popcorn poppers, flower sellers — were abruptly moved by city officials to a new and less visible location across Main Street. Since that relocation, profits have plummeted, vendors have pulled out and shoppers have become scarce.

"The cause is good," said Genaro Lopez, a vendor who initially helped protesters with free sodas and burritos. "But this is our bread and butter, and we've taken a huge hit."

Many vendors, who already struggle to make it through the slow winter months, have reported a 40% to 60% drop in sales since the move, said market manager Susan Hutchinson. So far, three have decided to quit showing up until the demonstrators are gone.

The irony is not lost on Occupy L.A. protesters.

"Here we are representing the 99%," said Martine Fennelly, an activist. "And the farmers are the first to suffer from the movement."

The decision was made through a vote Oct. 19, she said. Close to a hundred demonstrators cast votes. Nearly everyone agreed to move, but a handful did not. Because decisions required unanimous approval, the handful won, Fennelly said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... rack=icymi

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:06 pm

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
Herv100 wrote:Love these
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdLa6c3hN1w[/youtube]
He had a blast with that.

I cut it off when he started to explain why Buffet's effective tax rate is much higher than he claims it is and they insisted corporate income taxes don't affect him.

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:15 pm

Fat Cat wrote:

Much of the lobbying from the 7% of the private-sector workforce that's unionized supports the same special treatment and corporate welfare that their big-business employers do. It's not the force for equality that some might think it is.

The lobbying from government labor simply supports more government and no accountability.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:00 pm

Even better when you've slept in it for a few weeks in NYC!

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:36 pm

Turdacious wrote:I loved how that chick in the mortgage business is pissed off about people who rip other off. That's classic.

Yeah, kind of like a rapists complaining about being raped in the prison showers.

My first sales territory had a bunch of small time Mortgage brokers in it. By far the worst group of people I've ever dealt with in private business. Almost none of the sleaze balls could pass a simple credit check and where some of the worst human being I've met, outside of politicians.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:32 pm

Crime in Occupy Wall Street's encampment Zucotti Park might be worse than the public realizes. According to The New York Post, crime at the park, which included a homeless man allegedly pulling a knife during an argument as well as claims of sexual assaults, is so out of control many protesters have resorted to a "stop snitching" rule. In fact, reports The Post, one NYPD officer said, that much of the crime goes unreported as a result. “What’s happening in there is staying in there," said the New York City cop.

Similarly, Occupy Baltimore protesters reportedly passed out pamphlets telling demonstrators not to report sexual assaults to police. After receiving much criticism, Occupy Baltimore later revised their policy but, according to the Baltimore Sun, the policy still does not encourage involving law enforcement after a sexual assault happens within the Baltimore occupy encampment.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/wat ... nitching-/

OWS is turning into South Africa. Lovely.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:27 pm

Dux wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2qqRFYv3ao[/youtube]

Discuss.

Posting a link that is guaranteeing 180 degree opposing views without offering up your own view first is what's called Shaggy Shit-Stirring Tactic #11.

You go first.

Dux · Post by **Dux** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:43 pm

High Velocity Lie-Nap! wrote:
Dux wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2qqRFYv3ao[/youtube]

Discuss.
Posting a link that is guaranteeing 180 degree opposing views without offering up your own view first is what's called Shaggy Shit-Stirring Tactic #11.

You go first.

Fucker, no one can have fun around here anymore

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:53 pm

Pinky wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:
Much of the lobbying from the 7% of the private-sector workforce that's unionized supports the same special treatment and corporate welfare that their big-business employers do. It's not the force for equality that some might think it is.

The lobbying from government labor simply supports more government and no accountability.

Riiiiight. Because our only choices are corrupt unions or corporate welfare?

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:00 am

Turdacious wrote:
Crime in Occupy Wall Street's encampment Zucotti Park might be worse than the public realizes. According to The New York Post, crime at the park, which included a homeless man allegedly pulling a knife during an argument as well as claims of sexual assaults, is so out of control many protesters have resorted to a "stop snitching" rule. In fact, reports The Post, one NYPD officer said, that much of the crime goes unreported as a result. “What’s happening in there is staying in there," said the New York City cop.

Similarly, Occupy Baltimore protesters reportedly passed out pamphlets telling demonstrators not to report sexual assaults to police. After receiving much criticism, Occupy Baltimore later revised their policy but, according to the Baltimore Sun, the policy still does not encourage involving law enforcement after a sexual assault happens within the Baltimore occupy encampment.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/wat ... nitching-/

OWS is turning into South Africa. Lovely.

I'd love to know who selects the security force and which 'security teams' are selected. My speculation are thugs from the hood that can supply the weed and the meth to keep 'em numb and keep 'em fueled.

Thatcher II · Post by **Thatcher II** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:14 am

There are problems with the system. But this should give any OWS suppoter pause:

http://21stcenturywire.com/category/conspiracy-theory/

Pinky · Post by **Pinky** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:23 am

Fat Cat wrote:
Pinky wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:
Much of the lobbying from the 7% of the private-sector workforce that's unionized supports the same special treatment and corporate welfare that their big-business employers do. It's not the force for equality that some might think it is.

The lobbying from government labor simply supports more government and no accountability.
Riiiiight. Because our only choices are corrupt unions or corporate welfare?

I'm just saying that comparing the amounts of money contributed by business and labor doesn't really say much. They're both working toward the same end. They're both trying to convince DC to screw over the rest of us, often in exactly the same way.

What's more meaningful is the total business and labor spend. That's over 1.4 billion wasted on taking money from other people. We'd be better off if that money were simply put in a pile and burned.

The Venerable Bogatir X · Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:36 am

Gorbachev wrote:There are problems with the system. But this should give any OWS suppoter pause:

http://21stcenturywire.com/category/conspiracy-theory/

No Justice?

No Peace!

No Justice?

No Peace!

What do we want?

Justice!

When do we want it?

Now!

Reverend Al was down with NLP (yeah you know me!)

IGX

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