Face Masks Make You Stupid

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newguy
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

Post by newguy »

Sangoma wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:04 am
newguy wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:05 pm

Transmissions of ALL types of illness at schools with the "layers of mitigation" has just stopped. And it's not only because kids are not coming to school sick anymore. (Not letting them.) Those kids who get sick were in school - presymptomatic - for days. Schools are just not seeing the waves of multiple sicknesses in one class (spread) at all because illnesses are not getting to spread like they used to. Kid gets sick at soccer or from cousins. Comes to school, classmates are not getting sick.

Again, schools that are using the current strategies.

Word on the street is we might be getting more directive that use of the mask combined with constant hand washing and cleaning is what is doing it - not as much the social distancing of classrooms.
This is a philosophical question as much as a medical one. All living organisms live in constant interaction with each other, and viruses, parasites and bacteria are part of that. As civilisation developed we interfered with the natural course of life, death and health considerably. The question is, what's the overall effect of this intervention, beneficial or detrimental.

Exposure to bugs modifies the immune system. That's why as you gel older you get sick less. And that's why flu mortality is so high in the old - the bugs that manage to get through their immune system are super aggressive.

What's the long term effect of reducing respiratory infections among school kids? There are couple of studies demonstrating that kids with better hygiene tend to get more respiratory infections and, more significantly, asthma. It seems the immune system needs to be occupied with something or it will turn on its own host. Will the reduction of exposure to viruses lead to more auto-immune disease in the future?

Nobody knows. What looks good in the short term may turn out to be detrimental some time later. And vice versa.

Now, I am not saying ignore covid and don't worry about the prevention of infection at all. I think though that it would be useful to also look at ways to strengthen the immune system, not only fence it from threats. Sauna, fasting, regular exercise, sleep, exposure to sunlight, cold exposure, managing stress etc., in no particular order. Vaccination is great, and vaccines saved millions of lives, no doubt about it. The question is, what if the virus mutates sufficiently to make tge current vaccine ineffective? What do you do then?

Yeah. I get what you are saying. And there are cultural differences as well I am sure.

Here in the US, up until last year it was more than culturally acceptable to come to school sick. Blood or fever, stay home. Hacking so hard you can't stand....stay home. But actively symptomatic with coughing, running nose, etc....get to school. Students and teachers.

No one died. But schools would have waves of flu, waves of stomach bugs, waves of coughs regularly.

So I guess the question is - is stopping all this a good thing? And from what you are posting it's not a clear cut answer. Stopping illness may not benefit us in the long run.

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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I talked to a former co-worker, now running a boutique, class-based, gym in San Diego, that has been open illegally throughout the last year.

He remarked that nearly everyone he knew had contracted it, and it really kicked the shit out of one of the trainers at the gym -- requiring her to be hospitalized for a week. He also mentioned that him and his co-workers would go party hard on a regular basis, which again has been frowned on for spreading.

And I can think of very few people I know that have had it. I'm in the same city, but my behavior patterns are drastically different.

----

I have the luxury of this not fucking up my business, but it's not shocking to me that disregarding this thing has its consequences.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:24 pm I have the luxury of this not fucking up my business, but it's not shocking to me that disregarding this thing has its consequences.
This is the essence of both sides of the argument, and it hinges on economics, not virology. You, for understandable reasons, are able to comply with stay home directives without losing your shirt. Others, myself included and for a variety of reasons, cannot.

The people like nafod who defend this type of order tooth and nail do so because their bottom line is not threatened by it.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:35 pm
Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:24 pm I have the luxury of this not fucking up my business, but it's not shocking to me that disregarding this thing has its consequences.
This is the essence of both sides of the argument, and it hinges on economics, not virology. You, for understandable reasons, are able to comply with stay home directives without losing your shirt. Others, myself included and for a variety of reasons, cannot.

The people like nafod who defend this type of order tooth and nail do so because their bottom line is not threatened by it.
If you stay at home, you don't need to wear a mask. Why do you keep lumping in mask wearing with staying at home? Dumb.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:35 pm
Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:24 pm I have the luxury of this not fucking up my business, but it's not shocking to me that disregarding this thing has its consequences.
This is the essence of both sides of the argument, and it hinges on economics, not virology. You, for understandable reasons, are able to comply with stay home directives without losing your shirt. Others, myself included and for a variety of reasons, cannot.

The people like nafod who defend this type of order tooth and nail do so because their bottom line is not threatened by it.
It gets complicated though by things like avoiding the vaccine, and I understand wanting to wait to see if any side-effects manifest from taking it.

My take on vaccinating is that I already have a bunch of vaccines, and another one isn't an outlandish cause for concern. That, and the majority of people railing against it are pretty fucking kooky.

As someone said in a meme: "do you prefer medical advice from a doctor, or the girl that sat behind you in math and flunked out of high school?"
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:57 pm If you stay at home, you don't need to wear a mask. Why do you keep lumping in mask wearing with staying at home? Dumb.
Dumb? What's dumb is not understanding that I was talking with Bram about his post, wherein he wrote about his former co-worker's gym and their refusal to close down. Why don't you give me a comprehensive list of things you don't understand, so that I can respond in a more efficient manner?
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:07 pm It gets complicated though by things like avoiding the vaccine, and I understand wanting to wait to see if any side-effects manifest from taking it.

My take on vaccinating is that I already have a bunch of vaccines, and another one isn't an outlandish cause for concern. That, and the majority of people railing against it are pretty fucking kooky.
This is a completely different type of vaccine, called an mRNA vaccine. Never before have mRNA vaccines — such as the two-dose Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines that have now received emergency use authorization from the FDA — been approved for use in any disease. That alone means that taking a cautious approach to it is both logical and reasonable, despite the fact that some people who don't take it may be "kooky".

Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:07 pm As someone said in a meme: "do you prefer medical advice from a doctor, or the girl that sat behind you in math and flunked out of high school?"
Perhaps look up "iatrogenic death". Johns Hopkins study suggests medical errors are third-leading cause of death in U.S. See here: https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical- ... -of-death/
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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There is precisely zero chance that, at 37 and without children (yet), I'm going to get these injections. I'm interested in the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, but not these mRNA injections.

My 80 year old dad had the first injection and my 69 year old mother is going to get it when her number comes up, but they have already had a kid (me) and they've got a lot fewer years left than I do. My dad is also insanely high risk from this and isn't likely to live more than another year or two at best.

My chances of death are essentially zero, so I may not even get the Johnson & Johnson vax when it begins rolling out and is available for people in my age group. My immune system is strong as hell after years in classrooms and working with at risk kids. Been sick twice in the last 8 or 9 years, I'm in good shape, no underlying health issues.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:58 pm
Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:07 pm It gets complicated though by things like avoiding the vaccine, and I understand wanting to wait to see if any side-effects manifest from taking it.

My take on vaccinating is that I already have a bunch of vaccines, and another one isn't an outlandish cause for concern. That, and the majority of people railing against it are pretty fucking kooky.
This is a completely different type of vaccine, called an mRNA vaccine. Never before have mRNA vaccines — such as the two-dose Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines that have now received emergency use authorization from the FDA — been approved for use in any disease. That alone means that taking a cautious approach to it is both logical and reasonable, despite the fact that some people who don't take it may be "kooky".

Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:07 pm As someone said in a meme: "do you prefer medical advice from a doctor, or the girl that sat behind you in math and flunked out of high school?"
Perhaps look up "iatrogenic death". Johns Hopkins study suggests medical errors are third-leading cause of death in U.S. See here: https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical- ... -of-death/
Interesting study.

I am not in love with my opinion on these matters, and appreciate you pointing out the mRNA factor. I'll do some more research -- I'm not eligible to get vaccinated yet, so I've just been sitting back and watching what happens so far.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Bram wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:59 pm I am not in love with my opinion on these matters, and appreciate you pointing out the mRNA factor. I'll do some more research -- I'm not eligible to get vaccinated yet, so I've just been sitting back and watching what happens so far.
There's nothing crazy about your opinion, I imagine it's about where most Americans are at. I am not eligible either, and yet like all of us, I have had plenty of vaccines in my life. But when I think about how it really is a massive experiment, with an unproven technology, I probably wouldn't really ever bother with a COVID-19 vaccine, unless it starts keeping me from traveling. Hopefully, I can just put it off for long enough that if people start dropping, I won't be one of them.

But, one caveat, "trust the doctors" or "trust the science" is a tactic to get people to stop thinking critically. You don't have to "trust" science, actual science is built up over years of duplicated results, careful experimental design, and longitudinal studies of therapy recipients. None of that exists for COVID-19 vaccines. Doctors kill people all the time in America. It was doctors that prescribed the opioid epidemic, told Americans that smoking was healthy, and still shills PUFAs and HFC for big agribusiness.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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The topic of vaccination is bigger than just looking at its immediate effects. This article, for example - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404712/
- demonstrates that those who get flu vaccine are more likely to contract other viral infections. From the top of my head, there was another article demonstrating the same relationship between flu vaccine and N1H1 infection. It just shows what is pretty obvious, that things are connected, and touching one may cause many effects down the line.

Again, I am by no means saying that you should not get vaccinated. Baffled is spot on here, every intervention has to be weighed on it's risk/benefit ratio.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:26 am Again, I am by no means saying that you should not get vaccinated. Baffled is spot on here, every intervention has to be weighed on it's risk/benefit ratio.
Exactly and well said.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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One of our neighbors is a doc at the local hospital. She was telling us that about 35% of the employees at the hospital are choosing to not get the vaccine (they have both Pfizer and Moderna there).
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:06 pm One of our neighbors is a doc at the local hospital. She was telling us that about 35% of the employees at the hospital are choosing to not get the vaccine (they have both Pfizer and Moderna there).
The twin campaigns of smug virtue signaling and simplistic appeals to authority (trust science!) without clear explanations of how the vaccines work seems to be having consistent effects (1/3 vaccination rejection rates) across the board on the US.

And the proponents of racism being the reason for the low rates of vaccination among black Americans seem to forget that the Tuskegee experiment has a strong legacy.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Right now there's a long waiting list at the hospital, and lots and lots of people scrabbling to get it. Once that demand is satisfied, it will be interesting to see what happens with the holdouts.

I hope the mRNA holdouts will get the J&J old school design vaccine.

We will get to herd immunity when enough have gotten sick or gotten vaccinated. One way or another.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:50 pm Right now there's a long waiting list at the hospital, and lots and lots of people scrabbling to get it. Once that demand is satisfied, it will be interesting to see what happens with the holdouts.

I hope the mRNA holdouts will get the J&J old school design vaccine.

We will get to herd immunity when enough have gotten sick or gotten vaccinated. One way or another.
Ya, until then you should probably just stay home and stop posting.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:27 am
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:26 am Again, I am by no means saying that you should not get vaccinated. Baffled is spot on here, every intervention has to be weighed on it's risk/benefit ratio.
Exactly and well said.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:50 pm Right now there's a long waiting list at the hospital, and lots and lots of people scrabbling to get it. Once that demand is satisfied, it will be interesting to see what happens with the holdouts.

I hope the mRNA holdouts will get the J&J old school design vaccine.

We will get to herd immunity when enough have gotten sick or gotten vaccinated. One way or another.
I'll probably get the J&J vaccine when available.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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nafod wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:03 pm
Fat Cat wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:27 am
Sangoma wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:26 am Again, I am by no means saying that you should not get vaccinated. Baffled is spot on here, every intervention has to be weighed on it's risk/benefit ratio.
Exactly and well said.
Get a room

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I'll get you a nice Easter present instead.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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baffled wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 7:24 pm
nafod wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:50 pm Right now there's a long waiting list at the hospital, and lots and lots of people scrabbling to get it. Once that demand is satisfied, it will be interesting to see what happens with the holdouts.

I hope the mRNA holdouts will get the J&J old school design vaccine.

We will get to herd immunity when enough have gotten sick or gotten vaccinated. One way or another.
I'll probably get the J&J vaccine when available.
Friend of mine's ex-husband was a pharmacist and then CEO of some health companies. He recommended to her that she wait for the J&J.

But maybe he wants her to die.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Nah, he probably feels and thinks the way a lot of people do: interesting and very likely amazing technology that was rushed to prime time and as such, should be treated with caution.

Seeing some of the potential for mRNA therapies in treating things like MS is amazing. But rushing something like this for a virus with a 99.6% survival rate under 55 seems not prudent.

Edited to add: Reminder that my 80 year old dad had his first shot and my mom has her first scheduled for next weekend.

Makes sense for them to get it, but very little for me.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

Post by Sangoma »

Curiously, after the dust settled it turns out the Russian vaccine may be the best choice out there. Mind you, this is coming from someone who is very sceptical and critical of Russian/Soviet medicine in general.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Sangoma wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm Curiously, after the dust settled it turns out the Russian vaccine may be the best choice out there. Mind you, this is coming from someone who is very sceptical and critical of Russian/Soviet medicine in general.
If only your employers shared that skepticism.
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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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Sangoma wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:32 pm Curiously, after the dust settled it turns out the Russian vaccine may be the best choice out there. Mind you, this is coming from someone who is very sceptical and critical of Russian/Soviet medicine in general.
How so?

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Re: Face Masks Make You Stupid

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This is all well and good, but did you know in 1972 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit.
These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground.
Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune.
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